@KCSUMPS , what do you mean when you say you turned UV up to maximum flow? Usually slower is better, UV needs contact time to kill the nasty things. To much flow and I would think you would make it less effective?
Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?
- Thread starter mcarroll
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Great to hear @Steve Thompson @Zhark17. @dwest your new motto is great. It used to be no to drugs but now its ferric oxide.
@KCSUMPS, I get you.
As a starting point get your nutrients to the levels I suggested. That way your 'aint' gonna pi$$ anything off and at those levels it makes thing all the more controllable. Whilst getting to those levels get a scope and see what you are dealing with. Then put yourself a game plan together.
The most common strains we tend to find are as below. This incidentally covers the three main areas they will inhabit in the aquarium, across most of the groups.
Ostreopsis SPP
Telltale signs. Almond/tear drop shaped. Move as if on a tether.
Grows (well anywhere) but will form snot like strands raised in the water column. Air bubbles will be clearly visible trapped in the mucus.
The mucus is toxic, used to catch prey. As the prey dies the protists consume the nutrients released.
At night the cells migrate to the water column. This is often why people believe a 72 hour blackout will remove them. It won't.
Close up:
Movement:
Prococentrum SPP
Telltale signs. Cells have two central pyrenoids. Often emerges at edges of rock of work on sand due to where detritus accumulates. Will also grow happily on algae (as per many strains) discounting the large assumption that algae will use allopathy to reduce their numbers. Whilst I cannot say there might be some algae that does this, the ones we tend to grow don't appear to limit its growth rate.
Colouration is quite golden in comparison to amphidinium.
Amphidinium SPP
Telltale signs. Darker brown patches than Prococentrum. Benthic. Sand will be at its darkest during the day and will be lighter in the evening or at night as the cells move deeper in to the sandbed to avoid predation. Not toxic like Prococentrum so grazers shouldn't be affected by it.
Moves in forward direction, gliding across the surface. Relatively quickly for its size.
Where do the come from and what caused the bloom?
Introduced by fish, rock, corals, anything. Cells can remain on dry rock for lengthy periods of time (read years).
The bloom is their natural cycle, what causes the bloom (trigger point) is mixed and varies on species to species. The general consensus is as follows -
Nutrient deprived water. Cells reproduce sexually, bloom and look to find nutrient enriched waters. I have always thought it was a fight or flight response.
Warmer water, longer day light hours, disruption of sand.
As warmer weather occurs so do storms, the swell which causes turbulence on the ocean bed is a trigger for some strains to bloom. The warmer weather also brings in nutrients. Blooms will move with the ocean currents, but unlike the ocean don't have the luxury of being moved on in our glass box.
All of the above occur within our aquariums and can occur in a relative short space of time. The result is nothing one day and then a brown mess the next.
How to treat?
This is two fold, still largely speculative and with a degree of anecdotal theory however its the current trend and one that is proving positive.
Raise nutrients, No3 around 5ppm and as I said earlier shoot for phosphate to be around 0.08-0.1ppm. This is a guide its not set in stone.
One we want to calm the fight or flight response (trigger point). Now the cells aren't going to back down over night - you have them in a frenzy but over months it will start to slow the progression.
Two, lower nutrients is starving (has starved) other organisms which could predate the dinos. Encouraging those to develop and hopefully consume the protists will also help offset the imbalance.
Stability. Remember when that was how we kept saltwater tanks.
Keep a sensible light period, salinity is very important. Changes in salinity often bring them out of hiding. Ideally keep that tank out of direct sunlight.
Temperature. If only chillers were cheap. Most of the blooms I've had start around April. Tank water temp is higher and natural light is increasing the photo period.
pH, as stated before go high. I can usually knock the stuffing out of them with a pH of 9 but its not something I would encourage here. However do aim for the high 8s. Just monitor tank inhabitants to find the right level. Use Kalkwasser to do this. I find that the oversaturated solution when added in small amounts kills a lot on contact. The calcium also binds a lot of their mucus strands allowing them to be easily removed.
If you are lucky (unlucky?) enough to have a free swimmer variety go for a big fat ugly UV, plumb to display and cook them as If Gordan Ramsay was in the kitchen on a bad day.
Some people say lay off water changes and I did once upon a time, however be sensible. If corals look unhappy, do a change. Even if its smaller more frequent. Just avoid too much sand disturbance.
Things to avoid:
Amino dosing - this is like crack to them.
Stop dosing trace elements or cut back.
Ditch the GFO. Its ok to go back to when things are normal but in much smaller quantities and balanced. Consider using it passively rather than in reactors which have been designed for maximum contact in order to deplete phosphate fast.
Prevention:
I WISH! Dips have no affect on them, some are resistant to fresh water. The armour on others is so strong that even highly saturated H202 solution will have little affect.
The only known treatment to clean frags is good ole sodium chloride. However I suggest you read up if you want go that route.
Quarantine tanks are all but pointless as cells can remain dormant for 8+ years until a trigger invites them to germinate.
The only real prevention is to not keep saltwater fish. They are pretty darn common now sadly.
Final words?
I guess we have become to efficient at keeping our tanks clean. Utilisation of carbon sources increasing bacterial populations providing added benefit of another meal to them (some strains visibly harpoon their prey).
Nutrient poor systems, dosing additives and our desire to collect frags has ultimately rapidly spread them across the globe.
Still its not all doom and gloom, new methods are appearing and as we learn more we are finding ways to either live with them (as George Bush would have said, man and fish to coexist peacefully) or target new treatments. Perhaps that silver bullet is on its way.
@KCSUMPS, I get you.
As a starting point get your nutrients to the levels I suggested. That way your 'aint' gonna pi$$ anything off and at those levels it makes thing all the more controllable. Whilst getting to those levels get a scope and see what you are dealing with. Then put yourself a game plan together.
The most common strains we tend to find are as below. This incidentally covers the three main areas they will inhabit in the aquarium, across most of the groups.
Ostreopsis SPP
Telltale signs. Almond/tear drop shaped. Move as if on a tether.
Grows (well anywhere) but will form snot like strands raised in the water column. Air bubbles will be clearly visible trapped in the mucus.
The mucus is toxic, used to catch prey. As the prey dies the protists consume the nutrients released.
At night the cells migrate to the water column. This is often why people believe a 72 hour blackout will remove them. It won't.
Close up:
Movement:
Prococentrum SPP
Telltale signs. Cells have two central pyrenoids. Often emerges at edges of rock of work on sand due to where detritus accumulates. Will also grow happily on algae (as per many strains) discounting the large assumption that algae will use allopathy to reduce their numbers. Whilst I cannot say there might be some algae that does this, the ones we tend to grow don't appear to limit its growth rate.
Colouration is quite golden in comparison to amphidinium.
Amphidinium SPP
Telltale signs. Darker brown patches than Prococentrum. Benthic. Sand will be at its darkest during the day and will be lighter in the evening or at night as the cells move deeper in to the sandbed to avoid predation. Not toxic like Prococentrum so grazers shouldn't be affected by it.
Moves in forward direction, gliding across the surface. Relatively quickly for its size.
Where do the come from and what caused the bloom?
Introduced by fish, rock, corals, anything. Cells can remain on dry rock for lengthy periods of time (read years).
The bloom is their natural cycle, what causes the bloom (trigger point) is mixed and varies on species to species. The general consensus is as follows -
Nutrient deprived water. Cells reproduce sexually, bloom and look to find nutrient enriched waters. I have always thought it was a fight or flight response.
Warmer water, longer day light hours, disruption of sand.
As warmer weather occurs so do storms, the swell which causes turbulence on the ocean bed is a trigger for some strains to bloom. The warmer weather also brings in nutrients. Blooms will move with the ocean currents, but unlike the ocean don't have the luxury of being moved on in our glass box.
All of the above occur within our aquariums and can occur in a relative short space of time. The result is nothing one day and then a brown mess the next.
How to treat?
This is two fold, still largely speculative and with a degree of anecdotal theory however its the current trend and one that is proving positive.
Raise nutrients, No3 around 5ppm and as I said earlier shoot for phosphate to be around 0.08-0.1ppm. This is a guide its not set in stone.
One we want to calm the fight or flight response (trigger point). Now the cells aren't going to back down over night - you have them in a frenzy but over months it will start to slow the progression.
Two, lower nutrients is starving (has starved) other organisms which could predate the dinos. Encouraging those to develop and hopefully consume the protists will also help offset the imbalance.
Stability. Remember when that was how we kept saltwater tanks.
Keep a sensible light period, salinity is very important. Changes in salinity often bring them out of hiding. Ideally keep that tank out of direct sunlight.
Temperature. If only chillers were cheap. Most of the blooms I've had start around April. Tank water temp is higher and natural light is increasing the photo period.
pH, as stated before go high. I can usually knock the stuffing out of them with a pH of 9 but its not something I would encourage here. However do aim for the high 8s. Just monitor tank inhabitants to find the right level. Use Kalkwasser to do this. I find that the oversaturated solution when added in small amounts kills a lot on contact. The calcium also binds a lot of their mucus strands allowing them to be easily removed.
If you are lucky (unlucky?) enough to have a free swimmer variety go for a big fat ugly UV, plumb to display and cook them as If Gordan Ramsay was in the kitchen on a bad day.
Some people say lay off water changes and I did once upon a time, however be sensible. If corals look unhappy, do a change. Even if its smaller more frequent. Just avoid too much sand disturbance.
Things to avoid:
Amino dosing - this is like crack to them.
Stop dosing trace elements or cut back.
Ditch the GFO. Its ok to go back to when things are normal but in much smaller quantities and balanced. Consider using it passively rather than in reactors which have been designed for maximum contact in order to deplete phosphate fast.
Prevention:
I WISH! Dips have no affect on them, some are resistant to fresh water. The armour on others is so strong that even highly saturated H202 solution will have little affect.
The only known treatment to clean frags is good ole sodium chloride. However I suggest you read up if you want go that route.
Quarantine tanks are all but pointless as cells can remain dormant for 8+ years until a trigger invites them to germinate.
The only real prevention is to not keep saltwater fish. They are pretty darn common now sadly.
Final words?
I guess we have become to efficient at keeping our tanks clean. Utilisation of carbon sources increasing bacterial populations providing added benefit of another meal to them (some strains visibly harpoon their prey).
Nutrient poor systems, dosing additives and our desire to collect frags has ultimately rapidly spread them across the globe.
Still its not all doom and gloom, new methods are appearing and as we learn more we are finding ways to either live with them (as George Bush would have said, man and fish to coexist peacefully) or target new treatments. Perhaps that silver bullet is on its way.
Jason mack
Monti madness
I'm about too start DinoX now ..dinos are driving me crazy now
I'd siphoned all this 2hrs earlier ...
I'd siphoned all this 2hrs earlier ...
Jonreefer
Valuable Member
Mine was about that bad at its worst a month ago.I'm about too start DinoX now ..dinos are driving me crazy now
I'd siphoned all this 2hrs earlier ...
So far what I have done attacking back has been this
5day black out and dosing h202 2x a day at 1ml per 10g
also dosed Microbactor7 during the blackout
Sucked out 85% of my sand
Once the blackout was over I dosed Dr Tim Eco balance
Then I started the Dr Tim waste away daily for 7 days
Then did another dose of Eco balance
At this point the dinos where about 90% gone
I was dosing Nitrate and Phos at this point i was just dumping and had my nitrates up to 20ish and phos at .2 I saw a big reduction when I spiked my nutrients like this
I cut my lights down to about 3.5hr a day for a week
Then I started up a Dinox attack and have dosed 5 times already so at the 10day mark
I just did another 3day blackout
oh and I blow my rocks off all the time
and now last ditch effort I made up my own coral snow from Calcium carbonate to hope that maybe the dinos will bind to it and get pulled out by sock and skimmer more effectively.
That puts me at the current situation where I ma only able to find like 2 small brown strands left over so i am hoping I won or am in the processes of winning and they are just about gone.
Jason mack
Monti madness
My tank has always been a high nutrient tank ..no3 50 p04 0.08-0.12...although with rowaphos I can get it down changing more frequently...I've tried peroxide I was dosing 18ml per day on a 90g tank ..never touched them ..tank looked 10times worse and corals were not happy ..I change filter socks everyday ..I've got a uv albeit it's only 7w ..
Have you ID’d the type?
Jason mack
Monti madness
I was told it was coolia I believe
This was taken yesterday
Can anyone confirm that for me ..?
Last edited:
If it’s coolia I think you have a shot with UV. Can you get one that is at least 1 watt for every 3 gallons of tank volume?
I was told it was coolia I believe
This was taken yesterday
Jason mack
Monti madness
I was thinking of buying a 55w unit but they are so big it's going to be hard too fit it either on my tank or sump ...but I'm looking into it
I would. Not many successes chemically from what I’ve read.
KCSUMPS
Active Member
Just great info and help here. Thank you. I am on my way (up to 4.5 on the ph) and planning on staying around that for now. I did as much as calculate the entire cost of my fish and frags tonight to put in perspective if I loose it all... Not appealing but certainly reality.
I don't have sand (bare bottom) which may be another reason why I have never had phosphates in my tank (at least from my tests) and then I added bio pellets and gfo which put me 'ultra' low nutrient issue before my cycle finished...
After the weekend (and monitoring remotely via apex) out of town dosing from the ultra saturated ATO to stay up on the PH AND then going to super filter socks (arriving Tuesday thank you amazon) I will scrub the rest of the walls and blow off rocks.
The bubbles come off easy but the slime doesn't always have bubbles and is thick on the back wall. I still have active pods feeding there but sure that the dino was winning there...
I still plan a dino x attack next week but I now have a great new problem - white spots on my purple tang... but they are few and far between and look like either velvet or some form of worm so trying to get him back to QT as well.
I thought this hobby was supposed to be relaxing... It has been everything but that the last two weeks...
KCSUMPS
Active Member
Jason mack
Monti madness
Mine goes upto 78.5
Scottybgood
Community Member
Hard to tell from that picture, but if it is mostly ROUND like a ball it probably is. If it is Coolia (which I have been fighting for several months now) they seem to be more stubborn than Ostreopsis (which I had on the first outbreak - which UV took care of rather quickly).
I was told it was coolia I believe
This was taken yesterday
Can anyone confirm that for me ..?
Coolia does go to the water column, but sometimes needs a little help (blast with powerhead or turkey baster regularly) to make sure UV picks it up. From what I understand some of the coolia species are "armoured" which makes them more difficult to eradicate with the UV.
When I posted my questions concerning Coolia, @reeferfoxx pointed out that Coolia tends to thrive in High NO3 environment, so if you are running at 50 that could be contributing...I was dosing and had my PO4 was .09 and NO3 was 20-25 and was able to drop my NO3 closer to 5, keeping my Phosphates up I saw a visible change. They are still around, but not out of control like before. It is definitely a lesson in patience and persistence.
wgortenmulder (NL)
Community Member
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I'm now at my 13th month of this darn battle with these buggers....
In my opinion these are amphidinium.
In my earlier post al already said that my tank was unsaveable, after trying all possible remedies.
As you can see the tank looks like "horse sh**"....
And there is no way it will let corals stay alive.
My girlfriend convinced me to give it another try.. (the sweetheart)
So I’m going for the following attack:
- Move my remaining corals and fishes to the nursery (attached to my system incl sump)
- Install my 50 Watt UV to the nursery for a few days
- Disconnect the display
- Start PhycoEx chemical treatment
- The carpet anemone shrimps and urchins will go to a separate quarantine tank, after a few flushes with clean water (maybe with some sort of coral dip) because they can’t handle the PhycoEx treatment. Move the UV to this tank the ratio will be 1 Watt per Liter. This should be enough… I’ll keep an eye on the temp.
- Give the display a good clean-up (and sterilize everything as far as possible)
- Start the separate display without the sump.
- Add 10kg new fresh life rock and let it run for a couple of weeks without light but with elevated nutrients.
- Add extra pod’s and caulerpa
- If the quarantine tank is still dino free I will move the carpet anemone shrimps and urchins back to the display and let it run for another couple of weeks.
- If after this time the nursery is also dino free due to the chemical treatment, the “remaining” corals and snails will be transferred back to the display.
- Then the sump and nursery will also be cleaned and sterilized before they will be reconnected to the display again.
I know this will be a longshot and I don’t have much hope it will work.
But I hope the restart of the display will give the new variety of micro life a change to stabilize and outcompete the remaining dino’s…
Fingers crossed.
In my opinion these are amphidinium.
In my earlier post al already said that my tank was unsaveable, after trying all possible remedies.
As you can see the tank looks like "horse sh**"....
And there is no way it will let corals stay alive.
My girlfriend convinced me to give it another try.. (the sweetheart)
So I’m going for the following attack:
- Move my remaining corals and fishes to the nursery (attached to my system incl sump)
- Install my 50 Watt UV to the nursery for a few days
- Disconnect the display
- Start PhycoEx chemical treatment
- The carpet anemone shrimps and urchins will go to a separate quarantine tank, after a few flushes with clean water (maybe with some sort of coral dip) because they can’t handle the PhycoEx treatment. Move the UV to this tank the ratio will be 1 Watt per Liter. This should be enough… I’ll keep an eye on the temp.
- Give the display a good clean-up (and sterilize everything as far as possible)
- Start the separate display without the sump.
- Add 10kg new fresh life rock and let it run for a couple of weeks without light but with elevated nutrients.
- Add extra pod’s and caulerpa
- If the quarantine tank is still dino free I will move the carpet anemone shrimps and urchins back to the display and let it run for another couple of weeks.
- If after this time the nursery is also dino free due to the chemical treatment, the “remaining” corals and snails will be transferred back to the display.
- Then the sump and nursery will also be cleaned and sterilized before they will be reconnected to the display again.
I know this will be a longshot and I don’t have much hope it will work.
But I hope the restart of the display will give the new variety of micro life a change to stabilize and outcompete the remaining dino’s…
Fingers crossed.
Pennywise the Clown
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White sand and clear rock, something I didn't think that I would see again. Hopefully I can keep it this way.
Thanks for everyone's help and encouragement.
Thanks for everyone's help and encouragement.
Pennywise the Clown
Well-Known Member
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I'm no expert but to me, your dinos look more like Ostreopsis.I'm now at my 13th month of this darn battle with these buggers....
In my opinion these are amphidinium.
In my earlier post al already said that my tank was unsaveable, after trying all possible remedies.
As you can see the tank looks like "horse sh**"....
And there is no way it will let corals stay alive.
My girlfriend convinced me to give it another try.. (the sweetheart)
So I’m going for the following attack:
- Move my remaining corals and fishes to the nursery (attached to my system incl sump)
- Install my 50 Watt UV to the nursery for a few days
- Disconnect the display
- Start PhycoEx chemical treatment
- The carpet anemone shrimps and urchins will go to a separate quarantine tank, after a few flushes with clean water (maybe with some sort of coral dip) because they can’t handle the PhycoEx treatment. Move the UV to this tank the ratio will be 1 Watt per Liter. This should be enough… I’ll keep an eye on the temp.
- Give the display a good clean-up (and sterilize everything as far as possible)
- Start the separate display without the sump.
- Add 10kg new fresh life rock and let it run for a couple of weeks without light but with elevated nutrients.
- Add extra pod’s and caulerpa
- If the quarantine tank is still dino free I will move the carpet anemone shrimps and urchins back to the display and let it run for another couple of weeks.
- If after this time the nursery is also dino free due to the chemical treatment, the “remaining” corals and snails will be transferred back to the display.
- Then the sump and nursery will also be cleaned and sterilized before they will be reconnected to the display again.
I know this will be a longshot and I don’t have much hope it will work.
But I hope the restart of the display will give the new variety of micro life a change to stabilize and outcompete the remaining dino’s…
Fingers crossed.
wgortenmulder (NL)
Community Member
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2018
- Messages
- 28
- Reaction score
- 13
It could be.
I'm not an identification expert either.. haha.
However I have tried UV without succes.
Also it's not very toxic and they don't disappear at night or go into the water colum.
Pennywise the Clown
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 20, 2018
- Messages
- 613
- Reaction score
- 592
That's strange, the fact that the dinos has a pointy end makes me think Ostreopsis (I've looked at literally hundreds of pictures trying to identify my own strain LOL) but they should go into the water column and UV should be very helpful.
Good luck mate.
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