Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Pennywise the Clown]

Unfortunately I seem to have had another false dawn. Dinos are now present on the sand bed, rocks and power heads. I really thought that the UV sterilizer was winning the battle.
I did a 15% water change at the weekend, mainly to try and help my corals as I have just lost 2 Duncan colonies. Maybe this was a mistake.
Can somebody please confirm that these are prorocentrum and not amphidinium?
#feelingbeaten

 

[Paullawr]

Thanks again, especially to @dwest , @Paullawr and @reeferfoxx . I actually enjoy looking at/working on my tank thanks to you guys help. Took this video tonight....long way to go but the journey looks much more enjoyable than it did a short time ago.

Looks like a perfect tank.

 

[dwest]

Unfortunately I seem to have had another false dawn. Dinos are now present on the sand bed, rocks and power heads. I really thought that the UV sterilizer was winning the battle.
I did a 15% water change at the weekend, mainly to try and help my corals as I have just lost 2 Duncan colonies. Maybe this was a mistake.
Can somebody please confirm that these are prorocentrum and not amphidinium?
#feelingbeaten

Sorry Steve. Wish I could help. Hopefully @reeferfoxx has time. She’s our current resident dino expert ID person.

 

[reeftivo]

Unfortunately I seem to have had another false dawn. Dinos are now present on the sand bed, rocks and power heads. I really thought that the UV sterilizer was winning the battle.
I did a 15% water change at the weekend, mainly to try and help my corals as I have just lost 2 Duncan colonies. Maybe this was a mistake.
Can somebody please confirm that these are prorocentrum and not amphidinium?

I've been using extra pods and oceanmagik from algae barn with some success.
a water change is my fear! i've finally started to see my rock work pretty much free of dinos and it is receeding on the sand but i still have a few patches.
my corals are hanging in there but the effects are noticable. I lost a few snails and now only on occasion one will fall off the glass or rock "drunk", but the snails bounce right back and continue grazing.

Hope my corals survive this. I would hate to go through all

Unfortunately I seem to have had another false dawn. Dinos are now present on the sand bed, rocks and power heads. I really thought that the UV sterilizer was winning the battle.
I did a 15% water change at the weekend, mainly to try and help my corals as I have just lost 2 Duncan colonies. Maybe this was a mistake.
Can somebody please confirm that these are prorocentrum and not amphidinium?
#feelingbeaten

look like prorocentrum to me. do they move?
check link: http://www.algaeid.com/identification/

 

[dugthefish]

Any chance dinos in a new tank will just run their course? Or is intervention mandatory?

 

[dwest]

Any chance dinos in a new tank will just run their course? Or is intervention mandatory?

I believe they can be outcompeted by other organisms if conditions are right.

 

[Paullawr]

So a number of questions.

Dirty method. This is somewhat difference to nutrient balancing.

Letting tank go to pot probably isnt the best idea as there needs to be a level of health inside that glass box. Letting nutrients just rise uncontrollably isnt likely to help. The problem is some strains of dinos love nutrients. The higher the nitrate the more toxic some strains become (ironically) and usually high levels of anything arent appreciated by a lot of coral (obviously depending on what you are keeping).

Raising no3 and po4 is really just to get it over the zero most of us aim for. No3 at 5ppm is an ideal target to shoot for and po4 you want detectable without a hanna ultra low reader. Your corals will thank you for it too.

So why raise it if the critters we want shot of, suck it up?

Its purley to encourage micro fauna reproduction which will take up real estate that the brown slime likes to occupy.

If you strike it lucky you will encourage cilliates to reproduce and some are known to directly consume the protists doing the harm. Additionally pods will develop and some of these grazers will be bennificial.

The downside is this isnt a quick win over night. It takes time. If you have other options (strain dependant) then doubling up on the method of attack is a lot better.

Regarding tanks where algae is growing and dinos happily co-existing with algae and still being a nuisance.

Well they do, live happily on algae. Its entirely probable some algae may produce some form of aleopathy which irritates protists but Ive yet to find anything conclusive.

Some people will say you want some green in tank and ultimately its going to do no harm. Its not going to turn the tide on the war but it does provide a home for grazers.

Interesting article on nutrients and effects on diatoms and dinos. Which is echoing my own observations and listed above. Remember some strains eat and dont rely on light and nutrients alone.

https://digital.lib.washington.edu/researchworks/bitstream/handle/1773/19781/Wiesner_444paper.pdf

Final note. We wont remove them from our tanks but if they live happily alongside other organisms keeping them in check then thats a win.

 

[Paullawr]

Any chance dinos in a new tank will just run their course? Or is intervention mandatory?

They never really run their course but will live in relative harmony once kept in check by other more desirable creatures (and a big fat UV #where applicable#). Diversity is a good thing.

Dont let them stress you though.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Unfortunately I seem to have had another false dawn. Dinos are now present on the sand bed, rocks and power heads. I really thought that the UV sterilizer was winning the battle.
I did a 15% water change at the weekend, mainly to try and help my corals as I have just lost 2 Duncan colonies. Maybe this was a mistake.
Can somebody please confirm that these are prorocentrum and not amphidinium?
#feelingbeaten

I agree this is prorocentrum.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Thank you very much for the identification! Now to dive down the Chrysophyte rabbit hole.

Luckily, chrysophytes are an easy fix. Actually I battled it myself and have a thread on it.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chrysophytes-help-me-cure-it.263759/

 

[Pennywise the Clown]

I think my UV is still killing off my Dinos. The phosphates and Nitrates have really spiked to 0.5 and 50 respectively and my skimmer is removing over a cup a day of light brown crud (normally that would be over a weeks worth). Should I leave things alone and let things play out? I'm very reluctant to start using GFO again or doing any more water changes.

 

[wgortenmulder (NL)]

I think my UV is still killing off my Dinos. The phosphates and Nitrates have really spiked to 0.5 and 50 respectively and my skimmer is removing over a cup a day of light brown crud (normally that would be over a weeks worth). Should I leave things alone and let things play out? I'm very reluctant to start using GFO again or doing any more water changes.

I would say: just let it run its course.
Let your skimmer do the work for now.
Water changes and the use of GFO will just unbalance your system to fast and give dinos the possibility to get food hold again.

 

[Paullawr]

I think my UV is still killing off my Dinos. The phosphates and Nitrates have really spiked to 0.5 and 50 respectively and my skimmer is removing over a cup a day of light brown crud (normally that would be over a weeks worth). Should I leave things alone and let things play out? I'm very reluctant to start using GFO again or doing any more water changes.

Yeah leave it to it for now. Keep tabs on salinity and that no3 and make sure you are refreshing carbon.

What youre experiencing is mass die off and those nutrients they were sucking up are going back in to the water column.

Its likely cyano will pop up but if it does leave it to its devices for some time.

If tank health looks to be taking a dive go for the water changes but montior and use judgement. A few changes at this stage arent going to make any massive negative impact.

 

[KCSUMPS]

Beginning my battle Monday (out of town this weekend)....

As a newbie to saltwater I went too fast to the high tech rather than letting the tank do its thing for a full three months. Because of that I was dosing triton and using GFO and biopellets WAY to soon and got caught with dino and NO algae...

I am going to battle with the 'heavy feed and competition' route along with one round of dino x.

I look to have lost both a scarlet leg crab and emerald to eating the dino.

So far I have:

1. Upped the ph to 8.30 to 8.41 (was running 8.16 to 8.23)
2. Turned up my UV to max flow
3. Feeding about every other hour (used to be 2x a day)
4. removed GFO (I have ALWAYS run 0.0 on phosphates - put gfo in TOO EARLY)
5. removed biopellets (until we get this all resolved - my nitrates are around 10)
6. Run GAC in both reactors
7. Changed filter socks about 2 X a day
8. Scrubbed the back walls and blew off rocks daily
9. Dosed phosphate (seachem) as per directions
10. Removed my cheato (which was dwindling anyway in the refugium due to no phosphates)
11. Removed any dosing via pumps and am using kalkwasser for stability in PH
12. No water changes this last week
13. stopped individually or otherwise feeding corals to reduce amino acids, trace elements dinos can feed off of

RESULTS SO FAR:

• Where the turbo snails are the dinos seem to be dying back
• I have a bit of green on some of the rocks - hopefully green algae ready to compete with the dino
• Still have a 0 on the phosphate reading so I am upping the addition from 2x a week to daily until I get a reading

Next week the plan is to:

1. Install my 10 micron filter socks and change minimally daily if not more
2. Scrub the walls and blow the rocks off as well as I can
3. once all has settled turn of the GAC
4. do the 10 day dino x treatment
5. continue to dose phosphorus???
6. no water changes
7. **hope for no more losses

the following week (past the dino x) my plan is to:

• resume GAC in both reactors
• introduce additional turbo snails
• introduce significant numbers of copepods
• no water changes
• determine if it would be good to reintroduce chaeto in refugium...

ANY ADVICE IS APPRECIATED..

 

[Paullawr]

Beginning my battle Monday (out of town this weekend)....

As a newbie to saltwater I went too fast to the high tech rather than letting the tank do its thing for a full three months. Because of that I was dosing triton and using GFO and biopellets WAY to soon and got caught with dino and NO algae...

I am going to battle with the 'heavy feed and competition' route along with one round of dino x.

I look to have lost both a scarlet leg crab and emerald to eating the dino.

So far I have:

1. Upped the ph to 8.30 to 8.41 (was running 8.16 to 8.23)
2. Turned up my UV to max flow
3. Feeding about every other hour (used to be 2x a day)
4. removed GFO (I have ALWAYS run 0.0 on phosphates - put gfo in TOO EARLY)
5. removed biopellets (until we get this all resolved - my nitrates are around 10)
6. Run GAC in both reactors
7. Changed filter socks about 2 X a day
8. Scrubbed the back walls and blew off rocks daily
9. Dosed phosphate (seachem) as per directions
10. Removed my cheato (which was dwindling anyway in the refugium due to no phosphates)
11. Removed any dosing via pumps and am using kalkwasser for stability in PH
12. No water changes this last week
13. stopped individually or otherwise feeding corals to reduce amino acids, trace elements dinos can feed off of

RESULTS SO FAR:

• Where the turbo snails are the dinos seem to be dying back
• I have a bit of green on some of the rocks - hopefully green algae ready to compete with the dino
• Still have a 0 on the phosphate reading so I am upping the addition from 2x a week to daily until I get a reading

Next week the plan is to:

1. Install my 10 micron filter socks and change minimally daily if not more
2. Scrub the walls and blow the rocks off as well as I can
3. once all has settled turn of the GAC
4. do the 10 day dino x treatment
5. continue to dose phosphorus???
6. no water changes
7. **hope for no more losses

the following week (past the dino x) my plan is to:

• resume GAC in both reactors
• introduce additional turbo snails
• introduce significant numbers of copepods
• no water changes
• determine if it would be good to reintroduce chaeto in refugium...

ANY ADVICE IS APPRECIATED..

Firstly dino x is more likely to not help but infact make matters worse. Ive had it ruin more coral than dinoflagellates ever did.
Some do report success. However as said on earlier posts i spoke to fauna marin on it and the advice give to me was its only affective on strains that ingest. Clearly a lot of the ones we have doing the rounds dont consume as much as we would like.

PH is good. Higher the better. When i have an outbreak i head to the kalk. It helps preciptate co2 which is what they use for photosynthesis. I tend to run it around 8.7 - 8.9 with no ill affects but then i know my tank and inhabitants.

The dirty water method is debatable at best. As i said earlier its just another stress mechanism on potentially tired and weakend organisms. So use common sense/judgement. A bounce back of dinos will happen with or without water changes.

You are better off doing small but frequent changes and avoiding unsettling sandbed when nitrates start going above 10ppm. Its not the nutrient rich water that kills them.

Aim for no3 at 5ppm and po4 at around 0.08 to 0.1ppm. Too much po4 can reduce growth rate of stony corals. Not our major concern here but to bear in mind. These figures are what i find to be an equilibrium between low enough not to ruin coral colouration and high enough to feed the tank. As mentioned earlier higher nitrates increase their toxcidity which is going to do you no favours.

Other tips. ID or work out whether its free swimming or substrate and rock only. That will determine whether UV will help you or not.

Make sure skimmer is cleaned ready for onslaught. Get 5 micron socks. Yes they do sell them. At that size it will filter them out (free swimming).

Replenish gac frequently.

Drop in some estahlished mud or rock from clean tank if you have option to.

Grazers such as conches are good for sand dwellers.

 

[Paullawr]

I think my UV is still killing off my Dinos. The phosphates and Nitrates have really spiked to 0.5 and 50 respectively and my skimmer is removing over a cup a day of light brown crud (normally that would be over a weeks worth). Should I leave things alone and let things play out? I'm very reluctant to start using GFO again or doing any more water changes.

Hows it looking Steve.

 

[KCSUMPS]

Firstly dino x is more likely to not help but infact make matters worse. Ive had it ruin more coral than dinoflagellates ever did.
Some do report success. However as said on earlier posts i spoke to fauna marin on it and the advice give to me was its only affective on strains that ingest. Clearly a lot of the ones we have doing the rounds dont consume as much as we would like.

PH is good. Higher the better. When i have an outbreak i head to the kalk. It helps preciptate co2 which is what they use for photosynthesis. I tend to run it around 8.7 - 8.9 with no ill affects but then i know my tank and inhabitants.

The dirty water method is debatable at best. As i said earlier its just another stress mechanism on potentially tired and weakend organisms. So use common sense/judgement. A bounce back of dinos will happen with or without water changes.

You are better off doing small but frequent changes and avoiding unsettling sandbed when nitrates start going above 10ppm. Its not the nutrient rich water that kills them.

Aim for no3 at 5ppm and po4 at around 0.08 to 0.1ppm. Too much po4 can reduce growth rate of stony corals. Not our major concern here but to bear in mind. These figures are what i find to be an equilibrium between low enough not to ruin coral colouration and high enough to feed the tank. As mentioned earlier higher nitrates increase their toxcidity which is going to do you no favours.

Other tips. ID or work out whether its free swimming or substrate and rock only. That will determine whether UV will help you or not.

Make sure skimmer is cleaned ready for onslaught. Get 5 micron socks. Yes they do sell them. At that size it will filter them out (free swimming).

Replenish gac frequently.

Drop in some estahlished mud or rock from clean tank if you have option to.

Grazers such as conches are good for sand dwellers.

Excellent info and am open to about anything to get this to subside but want to take a step by step approach - I am ready to be persistent and patient for the results

 

[Pennywise the Clown]

Hows it looking Steve.

Looking much better thanks.

Every night I am now blowing the dinos off the back wall, rocks and sand. Tonight there were far less than yesterday.
I think prorocentrum need some encouragement to get into the water column and I am more than happy to give them all the encouragement they need.
The UV is definitely making a difference.
In fact I was feeling so positive today that I treated myself to 3 zoa frags, the first corals that I have bought in 8 weeks.

 

[dwest]

I think my UV is still killing off my Dinos. The phosphates and Nitrates have really spiked to 0.5 and 50 respectively and my skimmer is removing over a cup a day of light brown crud (normally that would be over a weeks worth). Should I leave things alone and let things play out? I'm very reluctant to start using GFO again or doing any more water changes.

Just say NO to GFO. That’s my new motto.

 

[Zhark17]

Same here! As Steve, my prorocentrum is receding after setting a UV filter. They still there, but not as strong as they were. So I can manually remove them without fear of a explosion the day after. Keep fighting!