Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[mcarroll]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I've read that low-P environments are somewhat tolerated by dino's...maybe plankton more generally... but that their cell wall composition will change from primarily phospolipids to something else....sulphur based I think? Do you have any idea what the significance is of this to their cells? I've seen this come up a few times in research, but never elaborated upon. Thanks!

 

[Eddie Rogers]

update on by situation
Thanks to @taricha @mcarroll @reeferfoxx for helping out
Dino type - prorocentrum dinos
I have had my nitrates at about 15pmm and phosphate at .1 for the past week and i have seen a slow down on how quick they cover the glass and rocks. It seems the Dinos are mostly in the sand bed, tonight i added a UV sterilizer, it is the Pentair smart UV 25 watt and a RIO 2100 plus pump. Currently i have the pump sitting in the tank, I'm not sure now how fast it works or even if it will work but I'll update in a couple of days

Its been about 1 week since turning of the UV, There has been a reduction in the amount of dinos. I have begun using an airline tube to suck the large patch out of the sand and rocks. I have been able to keep the nutrients up around 15ppm but the phosphate's i have been able to rise, I have dosed 20ml per day of Flourish Phosphate. I'll continue to up the dosage until i can get a reading on the sailfert kit.

 

[taricha]

Hi,

could someone identify what type of dinoflagellates are the ones that appear in the video? I have no experience and no identification, many thanks in advance







thanks !!!

Prorocentrum dinos. That's a good vid of the short stands coming up from the sand bed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley I've read that low-P environments are somewhat tolerated by dino's...maybe plankton more generally... but that their cell wall composition will change from primarily phospolipids to something else....sulphur based I think? Do you have any idea what the significance is of this to their cells? I've seen this come up a few times in research, but never elaborated upon. Thanks!

Organisms may change their membranes and other structures to use what is most available (sort of like a person making a house out of whatever is available locally), but it is also true that some organisms have a lower P demand because they naturally use a lot of sulfolipids and those organisms may be the ones that t naturally dominate in low P environments (whether in a reef tank or in the ocean):

http://www.pnas.org/content/103/23/8607.short

Sulfolipids dramatically decrease phosphorus demand by picocyanobacteria in oligotrophic marine environments

Abstract
There is growing evidence that dissolved phosphorus can regulate planktonic production in the oceans’ subtropical gyres, yet there is little quantitative information about the biochemical fate of phosphorus in planktonic communities. We observed in the North Pacific Subtropical Gyre (NPSG) that the synthesis of membrane lipids accounted for 18–28% of the phosphate (PO4 3−) taken up by the total planktonic community. Paradoxically, Prochlorococcus, the cyanobacterium that dominates NPSG phytoplankton, primarily synthesizes sulfoquinovosyldiacylglycerol (SQDG), a lipid that contains sulfur and sugar instead of phosphate. In axenic cultures of Prochlorococcus, it was observed that <1% of the total PO4 3− uptake was incorporated into membrane lipids. Liquid chromatography/mass spectrometry of planktonic lipids in the NPSG confirmed that SQDG was the dominant membrane lipid. Furthermore, the analyses of SQDG synthesis genes from the Sargasso Sea environmental genome showed that the use of sulfolipids in subtropical gyres was confined primarily to picocyanobacteria; no sequences related to known heterotrophic bacterial SQDG lineages were found. This biochemical adaptation by Prochlorococcus must be a significant benefit to these organisms, which compete against phospholipid-rich heterotrophic bacteria for PO4 3−. Thus, evolution of this “sulfur-for-phosphorus” strategy set the stage for the success of picocyanobacteria in oligotrophic environments and may have been a major event in Earth’s early history when the relative availability of sulfate and PO4 3− were significantly different from today’s ocean.

 

[mcarroll]

Hm.....gonna have to digest that. Very interesting!

I've seen it implied that the switch to sulfolipids was not a total benefit....can't recall if it was a dino (maybe even Symbiodinium) or if it was a phytoplankton. I remember the article had images of the cells, and those lacking phosphorus were clearly "unhealthy looking". They were just demonstrating the difference, so I don't remember them elaborating on the significance of this.

Are phospholipids more durable vs photosynthesis or otherwise "uniquely beneficial" in some way?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It would not surprise me if sulfolipids are a second best choice for some reason, which is why when P is available, organisms using phospholipids dominate strongly.

 

[tsav87]

This is what I have. What do I do? Lol

 

[m0jjen]

My chaeto has stopped growing, im guessing something got depleted which both dino and chaeto needed, does one dare to do a waterchange at this point or should i back off for afew weeks? Or just dose microelements straight into the fuge?

 

[mcarroll]

My chaeto has stopped growing, im guessing something got depleted which both dino and chaeto needed, does one dare to do a waterchange at this point or should i back off for afew weeks? Or just dose microelements straight into the fuge?

Could be. N and P are still holding at a good level?

I'm not sure I'd do anything differently yet.....growing chaeto is not the object so this is okay.

Seems like the caeto has done it's job, so let's see how things go....

 

[m0jjen]

Could be. N and P are still holding at a good level?

I'm not sure I'd do anything differently yet.....growing chaeto is not the object so this is okay.

Seems like the caeto has done it's job, so let's see how things go....

10 ppm no3 and 0.12 po4, dont budge even when not dosed for a week =) My whole sandbed is brown from diatoms at the moment. Cant find a single healthy dino cell in the microscope

 

[mcarroll]

@m0jjen Up to this point, had you been doing waterchanges so you could clean out the sand bed a little?

 

[mcarroll]

@m0jjen How's the tank looking overall? Corals doing well now?

 

[m0jjen]

@m0jjen Up to this point, had you been doing waterchanges so you could clean out the sand bed a little?

I have not done any since i started po4 dosing. Been vaccuming my sandbed into a filtersock to not spill or replace any water at all.

@m0jjen How's the tank looking overall? Corals doing well now?

Corals are looking great. Some are abit browned out or washed out in color but nothing major. LPS are looking fantastic tbh. Never had this much fluff on my acans. they are swolle! Also edited my previous post if you didnt notice

 

[mcarroll]

My whole sandbed is brown from diatoms at the moment. Cant find a single healthy dino cell in the microscope

That's a good thing overall, but a little strange to see diatoms blooming.....strange is still better than status quo.

 

[m0jjen]

That's a good thing overall, but a little strange to see diatoms blooming.....strange is still better than status quo.

Well, new sand was introduced and rinsed with tap water. Since there is no way for the diatoms to escape the system its just a mather of time i guess

 

[mcarroll]

Time heals all wounds?

Was this silicon "playbox" sand, or crushed aragonite sand?

 

[m0jjen]

Time heals all wounds?

Was this silicon "playbox" sand, or crushed aragonite sand?

Ati fiji white sand http://atiaquaristik.com/en/?one_page_portfolio=ati-fiji-white-sand

 

[taricha]

My chaeto has stopped growing, im guessing something got depleted which both dino and chaeto needed...

10 ppm no3 and 0.12 po4, dont budge even when not dosed for a week =) ... Cant find a single healthy dino cell in the microscope

Corals are looking great.

Very cool, and you are very on-topic with our recent discussion - good timing. Sure looks like you've induced a "trace element" limitation that has halted dino growth.
Could you do a sanity check?
Check the major water parameters: Salinity, Ca, Alk, Mg - it'd be dumb if Chaeto and Dinos slowed growing because your Alk was down to like 5.

 

[taricha]

This is what I have. What do I do? Lol

These are small-cell amphidinium dinos (as I mentioned in your other thread - some good tank shots of what it looks like on the sand over there as well). These dinos do leave the sand at night and enter the water column, so you ought to be able to target cells for killing (strong UV sterilizer) or export that way. These are real tiny though, so I don't even think a 10 micron filter is small enough to catch them.
Check the first post in the thread for the general idea. We want to elevate nutrients by dosing P and N to ensure the tank inhabitants have sufficient nutrients to grow and stabilize and not have the system be dominated by these dinos.
Also, I'd run some GAC in case the dinos have produced any toxins.

 

[m0jjen]

Very cool, and you are very on-topic with our recent discussion - good timing. Sure looks like you've induced a "trace element" limitation that has halted dino growth.
Could you do a sanity check?
Check the major water parameters: Salinity, Ca, Alk, Mg - it'd be dumb if Chaeto and Dinos slowed growing because your Alk was down to like 5.

Salinity: 1.025 Ca: 440 Kh: 8 Mg 1410, so nothing is off in that department