Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?
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XNavyDiver
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Tanks!
XNavyDiver
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Yes, I hold no illusions. I'll try and snap a few shots for morale purposes and post them here. I know in a week, it could be right back to square one.
XNavyDiver
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Some pics after the blackout:
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Since there's discussion of blackouts at the moment, I'll throw in my 2 cents (and tag @mcarroll in case he wants to jump in with his take).
Big picture, I'm not a fan of extended (over 48hr blackouts) versus dinos because it hampers too many things I think we should be supporting.
to go into more detail....
The Good: one kind of dinos - small cell amphidinium - I've seen these be totally wiped out of a sample by 9 days of darkness. Published papers show that a dino of this sort has a programmed cell death response to darkness of this length, so kinda self-destructs. Cool.
The Bad: another kind of dinos - large cell amphidinium - is entirely unaffected by darkness. Seen a culture of this remain happy, healthy, productive, and stay very active even when kept in the dark for 2 weeks, and also when chloroplasts were chemically destroyed. They never even slowed down. Clearly that had moved on to other food sources (munchin' bacteria).
The Useful: practically every species of dino has some of the population's cells go into the water to spread. Light is a strong cue for this movement. Reducing light up to and including a (short) blackout can increase the amount of cells going into the water. Which makes methods of cell removal/killing from the water column (UV) more effective.
The Whatever: Most dino species are slowed in growth by blackout, but so is every other kind of photosynthetic cell, turf and macro algaes, diatoms, phytos etc. So an extended blackout (over 48 hrs) is a step back for tank biodiversity. If your tank is already wrecked by dinos and has no biodiversity to speak of, then this is a wash - at best kicking the can down the road and delaying the growth of organisms you'll have to establish later. If your tank was starting to grow biodiversity and letting them get a foothold where there was only dinos, then an extended blackout is a step back.
Big picture, I'm not a fan of extended (over 48hr blackouts) versus dinos because it hampers too many things I think we should be supporting.
to go into more detail....
The Good: one kind of dinos - small cell amphidinium - I've seen these be totally wiped out of a sample by 9 days of darkness. Published papers show that a dino of this sort has a programmed cell death response to darkness of this length, so kinda self-destructs. Cool.
The Bad: another kind of dinos - large cell amphidinium - is entirely unaffected by darkness. Seen a culture of this remain happy, healthy, productive, and stay very active even when kept in the dark for 2 weeks, and also when chloroplasts were chemically destroyed. They never even slowed down. Clearly that had moved on to other food sources (munchin' bacteria).
The Useful: practically every species of dino has some of the population's cells go into the water to spread. Light is a strong cue for this movement. Reducing light up to and including a (short) blackout can increase the amount of cells going into the water. Which makes methods of cell removal/killing from the water column (UV) more effective.
The Whatever: Most dino species are slowed in growth by blackout, but so is every other kind of photosynthetic cell, turf and macro algaes, diatoms, phytos etc. So an extended blackout (over 48 hrs) is a step back for tank biodiversity. If your tank is already wrecked by dinos and has no biodiversity to speak of, then this is a wash - at best kicking the can down the road and delaying the growth of organisms you'll have to establish later. If your tank was starting to grow biodiversity and letting them get a foothold where there was only dinos, then an extended blackout is a step back.
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mcarroll
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Have to agree with the above...which is why ID of your dino is still pretty darned important when you set out to fix your tank.
"Know your tank! And know your algae! Only knowing one won't do it."
--Sun Tzu's Guide To Algae Control
"Know your tank! And know your algae! Only knowing one won't do it."
--Sun Tzu's Guide To Algae Control
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mcarroll
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For anyone reading this thread who doesn't have a microscope, there is really very little excuse for not having one in your kit.*
A basic model (often sold as a toy) only costs $12 and will get the job done.
Check this out for ideas and specific links: Selecting a microscope
* I say the same about light meters. For $10-$12 you can get a basic lux meter like I use. I could have avoided the biggest mistake I've ever made in reefing if I'd just known at the time that it was OK to use a lux meter.
A basic model (often sold as a toy) only costs $12 and will get the job done.
Check this out for ideas and specific links: Selecting a microscope
* I say the same about light meters. For $10-$12 you can get a basic lux meter like I use. I could have avoided the biggest mistake I've ever made in reefing if I'd just known at the time that it was OK to use a lux meter.
I've been lurking this entire thread, and found it to be most useful dino thread on the entire Interweb!
My tank scenario matches others on this thread, i.e. low nutrients, bottomed out PO4, low biodiversity. I have been dosing for the last week and a half, and running UV for about 3 weeks (thanks to Velcro's thread), and seen considerable improvement.
So the only thing I have not done is get a positive ID with a microscope, mainly due to lack of time with work and two young kids at home, I barely have time to fart. If I describe my dino as a slimy matt on the sand bed, with no strings or bubbles, does that allow the experts here @taricha @mcarroll to narrow it down? Or at least, tell me if it's a variety that goes into the water column at night? I just wonder if it's worth running the UV, as I did not get any results from the UV alone before I started dosing PO4...
Any help is appreciated. And I want to thank all the contributors here so far, to give us hope, I see the light at the end of the tunnel!
My tank scenario matches others on this thread, i.e. low nutrients, bottomed out PO4, low biodiversity. I have been dosing for the last week and a half, and running UV for about 3 weeks (thanks to Velcro's thread), and seen considerable improvement.
So the only thing I have not done is get a positive ID with a microscope, mainly due to lack of time with work and two young kids at home, I barely have time to fart. If I describe my dino as a slimy matt on the sand bed, with no strings or bubbles, does that allow the experts here @taricha @mcarroll to narrow it down? Or at least, tell me if it's a variety that goes into the water column at night? I just wonder if it's worth running the UV, as I did not get any results from the UV alone before I started dosing PO4...
Any help is appreciated. And I want to thank all the contributors here so far, to give us hope, I see the light at the end of the tunnel!
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If I'm laying odds, 70% chance it's large cell amphidinium that doesn't go in water column.
20% chance it's another dino that does enter water.
10% chance it's something else entirely.
Only microscope is proof.
Thanks so much taricha!!!
And if I researched correctly, large cell amphidinium is unaffected by lights out, which I did at one point for 6 days. Anyhow, I will continue the dosing, and perhaps move the UV to the sump because it's dang ugly in the display!The toy microscope is in my amazon shopping cart, unfortunately, it's $28 up here in Canada. If the dino continues to improve, then maybe I won't click the buy button.
Will update if things get better or worse...
Beardo
Well-Known Member
I have to second the recommendation on purchasing a microscope. I personally put it off for over 2 years before finally breaking down and buying one. After using it, even my wife agrees it was great purchase...even though I spent a bit more than $12.
I was able to identify 5 different species of dinos in my tank and monitoring has helped immensely with treatment and evaluating what is working and what isn't. Also made me realize that certain diatoms can look similar to dinos to the naked eye.
Besides, just looking at the diversity of microscopic life in the tank is fascinating.
Has peaked my kids' interest as well. Never expected my oldest, who is in college, to ask me to send her videos I had taken under the microscope so she could show her boyfriend. I guess being a nerd runs in the family.
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mcarroll
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The same kit is sold under a number of other brands. I've seen other color plastics too. So maybe look around for someone who's already imported some to CAN under another brand? Or maybe order from ebay/china direct? Or....$28 is still dirt cheap....just go with it.
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mcarroll
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Didn't notice til now we'd crossed 1000 posts!! I'd like to eclipse the "cure" thread. I'm happy with this pace.
I'm gonna have to quote you on that.
Never? Ever? Really? No bubbles? Anything is possible, and probabilities would lead me to suggest dino's. But you may have a blend, or Ostreopsis that has different triggers, or a slimy mat of something altogether different like diatoms. That would be weird, but when you're in "anything is possible land"....
Always make time for that! ;Dead
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mcarroll
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@Orangutran can you post a picture of your bloom? A closeup and full tank shot wouldn't be a bad idea! I just mean regular cellphone pics.
I'd even suggest starting your own thread either for your tank, or this issue, post all the photos and details there and post the link here (and PM me if you want!).
I'd even suggest starting your own thread either for your tank, or this issue, post all the photos and details there and post the link here (and PM me if you want!).
@Orangutran can you post a picture of your bloom? A closeup and full tank shot wouldn't be a bad idea! I just mean regular cellphone pics.
I'd even suggest starting your own thread either for your tank, or this issue, post all the photos and details there and post the link here (and PM me if you want!).
Here are a few pics of shame, from a month ago...
Jurassic Park - Aug 16, 2017
Jurassic Park - Aug 16, 2017Pretty sure it's dino, cus I had diatoms right before this... In the the FTS, you can see it kinda killed the few sps I had on the right and left side. Also, I have no algae growth in the last 2-3 months!
Always make time for that! ;Dead
Yeah, then I blame it on the baby!
The same kit is sold under a number of other brands. I've seen other color plastics too. So maybe look around for someone who's already imported some to CAN under another brand? Or maybe order from ebay/china direct? Or....$28 is still dirt cheap....just go with it.
You're right, the 28$ one is rebranded for Can! I just need to add something to my order to get free shipping >$35. There is actually an 18$ one, but that ships from china and could take months to arrive!
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/n...rs-and-description.304950/page-4#post-4060702
Things are not going well. I just got back from a short 5 day trip and the glass, sand, rock and some corals were COVERED in brown slime. I cleaned the glass with the flipper and the water was BROWN BROWN BROWN for a couple of hours. I then tried to gently blow off some of the stringy dinos off of the green birdsnest and wouldn't you know, the green polyps all came off with the dinos. Wonderful.
I've had phosphates (ACTIVATE) on a doser at 2 ml a day and last night the phosphates were at 75 ppb/.23 ppm after 5 or 6 days of no testing due to be out of town. I think I have that rate dialed in. The nitrate dosing is as needed. Both nitrate and phosphate drop to zero if no dosing done.
The goby and the conch are TRYING to keep the sand clean but struggling to keep up. The tang nor the foxface show no interest eating any nuisance algae in the tank. They seem to only go after nori and pellets/mysis.
No help from adding the 10 lbs of GARG grunge, from what I can tell.
I just ordered a magnum polishing filter, diatomaceous earth and a UV sterilizer. Obviously just dosing the nutrients up and manually removing isn't helping.
I'm really not sure where to go from here. I'm extremely disappointed and at wit's end.
@mcarroll @taricha
Does anyone have any thoughts?
Things are not going well. I just got back from a short 5 day trip and the glass, sand, rock and some corals were COVERED in brown slime. I cleaned the glass with the flipper and the water was BROWN BROWN BROWN for a couple of hours. I then tried to gently blow off some of the stringy dinos off of the green birdsnest and wouldn't you know, the green polyps all came off with the dinos. Wonderful.
I've had phosphates (ACTIVATE) on a doser at 2 ml a day and last night the phosphates were at 75 ppb/.23 ppm after 5 or 6 days of no testing due to be out of town. I think I have that rate dialed in. The nitrate dosing is as needed. Both nitrate and phosphate drop to zero if no dosing done.
The goby and the conch are TRYING to keep the sand clean but struggling to keep up. The tang nor the foxface show no interest eating any nuisance algae in the tank. They seem to only go after nori and pellets/mysis.
No help from adding the 10 lbs of GARG grunge, from what I can tell.
I just ordered a magnum polishing filter, diatomaceous earth and a UV sterilizer. Obviously just dosing the nutrients up and manually removing isn't helping.
I'm really not sure where to go from here. I'm extremely disappointed and at wit's end.
@mcarroll @taricha
Does anyone have any thoughts?
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