Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[ScottB]

Is the rubble for silica? It would be a huge pain, but since it is only a 13 gal tank, if it seems likely that I will be dealing with LC, I might take out the rock and dip it with 50% h2o2 (I have almost all softies) and put that in a qt tank, wash the sand and tank in rodi and reassemble. I could even rinse the bio media in fresh water and add bottled bacteria. I don't have any fish right now, so I'm not too concerned about biological filtration. How does that sound? I realize any competitors would be gone too. Also, what if I only get 98% of it? Is it one of those things where it will come back right away?

The rubble is just to add some microorganism diversity. If you started with live rock, it isn't all that important. But if it was a dead rock start there is some intermediate term value in this.

With LC amphids, it is less about killing/removal and more about fostering some competition.

 

[Yodeling]

Well, I guess I didn't knock on wood well enough.

My Ostreopsis is back. Originally it pretty much disappeared after 1 day blackout with strong UV plumbed from DT to DT. Since then, I kept my No3 and Po4 at 8.0 and 0.08 respectively via a doser, testing every day (and actually noticing algae popping up here and there), and UV has been running 24/7. I returned the lighting to original 12 hour schedule.

Couple days ago, I noticed the familiar stringy brown mass on the my egg crate, and it has since gotten incrementally worse, popping up in few spots on the tank walls (right over the film algae), as well as return nozzles etc. I confirmed with the microscope that it's still Ostreo. I've been using a baster to get it into the water column so the UV can do its thing, but apparently it's determined to stay.

So I'm looking to take some drastic measures. Yesterday, I dosed Microbe-Lift Special Blend, Nightout, and MB7 and turned UV off for 12 hours. This morning I turned UV and skimmer back on and blacked out the room. I plan on doing a 3 day blackout. I will also be adding a few powerheads with airlines to the DT to raise oxygen during blackout. I plan on basting the dino with a flashlight during the blackout from time to time. And I'll keep dosing nutrients and testing.

What else should I do? Peroxide? Phyto? Temp change?

I do have corals in the tank including Acros.

Honestly, I'm tempted to use what worked for me in the past (I think 2005-ish?). I did a 3 day blackout with Maracyn and it completely eliminated a much much worse dino outbreak. I think it was a different strain (microscope ID wasn't a thing back then), but it worked wonders. It completely eliminated the dino and it never came back. I believe there were a few other people on RC who saw the same result from Maracyn.

 

[ScottB]

Well, I guess I didn't knock on wood well enough.

My Ostreopsis is back. Originally it pretty much disappeared after 1 day blackout with strong UV plumbed from DT to DT. Since then, I kept my No3 and Po4 at 8.0 and 0.08 respectively via a doser, testing every day (and actually noticing algae popping up here and there), and UV has been running 24/7. I returned the lighting to original 12 hour schedule.

Couple days ago, I noticed the familiar stringy brown mass on the my egg crate, and it has since gotten incrementally worse, popping up in few spots on the tank walls (right over the film algae), as well as return nozzles etc. I confirmed with the microscope that it's still Ostreo. I've been using a baster to get it into the water column so the UV can do its thing, but apparently it's determined to stay.

So I'm looking to take some drastic measures. Yesterday, I dosed Microbe-Lift Special Blend, Nightout, and MB7 and turned UV off for 12 hours. This morning I turned UV and skimmer back on and blacked out the room. I plan on doing a 3 day blackout. I will also be adding a few powerheads with airlines to the DT to raise oxygen during blackout. I plan on basting the dino with a flashlight during the blackout from time to time. And I'll keep dosing nutrients and testing.

What else should I do? Peroxide? Phyto? Temp change?

I do have corals in the tank including Acros.

Honestly, I'm tempted to use what worked for me in the past (I think 2005-ish?). I did a 3 day blackout with Maracyn and it completely eliminated a much much worse dino outbreak. I think it was a different strain (microscope ID wasn't a thing back then), but it worked wonders. It completely eliminated the dino and it never came back. I believe there were a few other people on RC who saw the same result from Maracyn.

That is sad and a little unusual with nutrients at that level to relapse into ostreos. Any chance that the UV bulb is compromised?

 

[Yodeling]

That is sad and a little unusual with nutrients at that level to relapse into ostreos. Any chance that the UV bulb is compromised?

It's a brand new Pentair HO and I can clearly see the glow of the bulb through the view port. The unit is also warm to the touch.

The problem is that my dino doesn't go into the water column at night as many people suggest is a typical behavior for Ostreo. They form blobs/strings in a few places in the tank (not many) and those persist and grow even overnight. Maybe mine isn't Ostreo? Here's a pic again, this is what they typically look like (I took a lot of pics).

 

[ScottB]

It's a brand new Pentair HO and I can clearly see the glow of the bulb through the view port. The unit is also warm to the touch.

The problem is that my dino doesn't go into the water column at night as many people suggest is a typical behavior for Ostreo. They form blobs/strings in a few places in the tank (not many) and those persist and grow even overnight. Maybe mine isn't Ostreo? Here's a pic again, this is what they typically look like (I took a lot of pics).

Primarily ostreos, yes. I feel like a see a couple of Proro maybe?

If your coral can handle it, I am good for another blackout.

When lights are running, I guess you could supplement your manual removal with some "poor man's UV" like pictured here. My ostreos loved to attach to filter floss. I just hang it wherever they preferred to be. Typically a high light and flow area. Rinse before the lights go down.

 

[Yodeling]

Primarily ostreos, yes. I feel like a see a couple of Proro maybe?

If your coral can handle it, I am good for another blackout.

When lights are running, I guess you could supplement your manual removal with some "poor man's UV" like pictured here. My ostreos loved to attach to filter floss. I just hang it wherever they preferred to be. Typically a high light and flow area. Rinse before the lights go down.

Thanks. I've never had negative effects from blackouts on my corals, usually the opposite LOL. Hope I don't jinx it.

The dino is all the same sesame seed shape. Some of them just like to roll around so you're seeing them from a different angle. Hard to see in a still photo obviously.

I'll try the filter floss idea. I might actually remove the large egg crate and figure out a different solution for the frags. The holes in the egg crate seem to be their favorite spots. The tank has a massive amount of flow, so I feel like those holes are spots they can attach more easilly.

 

[bishoptf]

@ScottB or @taricha looks like dino's are back, had small cell amphid but early in the year and now looks like ostreos but was hoping someone can confirm. Nutirents have not bottomed out so I do not know what is causing these issues, just been trying to keep things stable and starting to think i"m never going to be able to enjoy the tank. It's a bare bottom tank, Nitrate is around 10ppm and po4 is .06 or higher. I turned off my UV since I was trying to clean up some cyano in my sump with Chemi-clean and saw stringing on the back glass, usually UV is running 24/7 but still not sure why they are here. I can turn on the UV again and I am sure that will help but I'd really like to know what it takes to kick these guys to the curb once and for all, really gets depressing.

Here are some pics:

Thanks

 

[ScottB]

@ScottB or @taricha looks like dino's are back, had small cell amphid but early in the year and now looks like ostreos but was hoping someone can confirm. Nutirents have not bottomed out so I do not know what is causing these issues, just been trying to keep things stable and starting to think i"m never going to be able to enjoy the tank. It's a bare bottom tank, Nitrate is around 10ppm and po4 is .06 or higher. I turned off my UV since I was trying to clean up some cyano in my sump with Chemi-clean and saw stringing on the back glass, usually UV is running 24/7 but still not sure why they are here. I can turn on the UV again and I am sure that will help but I'd really like to know what it takes to kick these guys to the curb once and for all, really gets depressing.

Here are some pics:

Thanks

Those are ostreopsis. They carry some toxins so add some GAC.

On the bright side, they are generally adventurous swimmers at night, so the UV is your friend.

They were likely being held "in check" by the cyano and other bacterial films in the system that were owning your surfaces. The Chemiclean killed them. Dinos are excellent at scavenging damaged surface competitors and filling any voids in the web of surface competitors.

Ironically, the passage away from these dinos most often involves going through a stretch of cyano

Although very effective against cyano, I am not a fan of Chemiclean or equivalent erythromycin treatments because I see this result (dinos) at least once a week in this thread. I would describe it as the second leading cause after nutrient deprivation (very often from using GFO).

Also, your UV of course was helping control the population, so fire it up again asap.

 

[ScottB]

@ScottB or @taricha looks like dino's are back, had small cell amphid but early in the year and now looks like ostreos but was hoping someone can confirm. Nutirents have not bottomed out so I do not know what is causing these issues, just been trying to keep things stable and starting to think i"m never going to be able to enjoy the tank. It's a bare bottom tank, Nitrate is around 10ppm and po4 is .06 or higher. I turned off my UV since I was trying to clean up some cyano in my sump with Chemi-clean and saw stringing on the back glass, usually UV is running 24/7 but still not sure why they are here. I can turn on the UV again and I am sure that will help but I'd really like to know what it takes to kick these guys to the curb once and for all, really gets depressing.

Here are some pics:

Thanks

And those are good nutrient numbers both in terms of absolute values and the balance between them. Kinda surprises me that you are struggling with cyano.

Has this ratio of NO3/PO4 been consistent for a while? I find cyano to (generally) be a transitional phase when nutrients are shifting or are out of balance with each other.

 

[bishoptf]

Those are ostreopsis. They carry some toxins so add some GAC.

On the bright side, they are generally adventurous swimmers at night, so the UV is your friend.

They were likely being held "in check" by the cyano and other bacterial films in the system that were owning your surfaces. The Chemiclean killed them. Dinos are excellent at scavenging damaged surface competitors and filling any voids in the web of surface competitors.

Ironically, the passage away from these dinos most often involves going through a stretch of cyano

Although very effective against cyano, I am not a fan of Chemiclean or equivalent erythromycin treatments because I see this result (dinos) at least once a week in this thread. I would describe it as the second leading cause after nutrient deprivation (very often from using GFO).

Also, your UV of course was helping control the population, so fire it up again asap.

Thanks, I just couldnt ever get rid of the cyano in spots and the fuge with my chaeto. I wanted to go another day without adding the carbon and UV but sounds like I need to just go ahead and add those back to the mix and not risk another day? Not sure why my po4 is so low but its coming up to .01 and nitrate is about normal 9-10ppm. I can dose some phosphate to bring that back up but it's been trending high, lately.

Sounds like you think I should turn UV back on and carbon vs waiting? How do I kick these guys to the curb once and for all, gets frustrating that they just keep coming back, any ideas?

 

[Yodeling]

@Tom Bishop see my post above. Unfortunately UV and dosing nutrients alone didn't help me long term. Maybe my Ostreo is different, but it doesn't all go into the water column at night as many claim it should. I still see it attached at night, so it doesn't pass through the UV.

Now I am trying a multi-pronged approach of blackout, UV, bacteria (including sludge-busters), basting, and heavy oxygenation. I'm on day 1 of the blackout. Acros seem very happy with full PE right now. If I see them getting upset, I might end the blackout early. Trying for 3 days.

Btw, could the Ostreo be consuming the PO4 and hence responsible for your low reading?

 

[bishoptf]

And those are good nutrient numbers both in terms of absolute values and the balance between them. Kinda surprises me that you are struggling with cyano.

Has this ratio of NO3/PO4 been consistent for a while? I find cyano to (generally) be a transitional phase when nutrients are shifting or are out of balance with each other.

Yeah nitrate is pretty stable I have a big ball of chaeto and that is where I saw the most cyano, around the chaeto and some spots on the rocks but the fuge was the worse. Phosphate has been an issue, if I didn't use something to export it would just keep going up, was using phosguard but in an overflow from fuge to return, big section and I had one small bag just getting a portion. I would let it get to around .1 then reduce it, earlier this week I sampled it and it was .08, and then today .01, not sure what reduced that number so large, the only thing I have done is the chemiclean treatment.

Carbon and UV back on, i scrubbed the back wall and some of the rocks, pretty sure your right the chemi clean cleaned up the rock and the dino's jumped back in line, sigh. Really wish I new the magic sauce to clear it up for good, will do a water change tomorrow to remove the chemiclean from the system and try to get things to settle down, and hopefully the UV will have an effect on the dino's and see if I can get out of the mess I created, ugh.

 

[bishoptf]

@Tom Bishop see my post above. Unfortunately UV and dosing nutrients alone didn't help me long term. Maybe my Ostreo is different, but it doesn't all go into the water column at night as many claim it should. I still see it attached at night, so it doesn't pass through the UV.

Now I am trying a multi-pronged approach of blackout, UV, bacteria (including sludge-busters), basting, and heavy oxygenation. I'm on day 1 of the blackout. Acros seem very happy with full PE right now. If I see them getting upset, I might end the blackout early. Trying for 3 days.

Btw, could the Ostreo be consuming the PO4 and hence responsible for your low reading?

Not sure what lowered my PO4 so much, scratching my head with that one.

 

[bishoptf]

Those are ostreopsis. They carry some toxins so add some GAC.

On the bright side, they are generally adventurous swimmers at night, so the UV is your friend.

They were likely being held "in check" by the cyano and other bacterial films in the system that were owning your surfaces. The Chemiclean killed them. Dinos are excellent at scavenging damaged surface competitors and filling any voids in the web of surface competitors.

Ironically, the passage away from these dinos most often involves going through a stretch of cyano

Although very effective against cyano, I am not a fan of Chemiclean or equivalent erythromycin treatments because I see this result (dinos) at least once a week in this thread. I would describe it as the second leading cause after nutrient deprivation (very often from using GFO).

Also, your UV of course was helping control the population, so fire it up again asap.

So what other bacteria strains can I add to increase diversity, I have mb7 but think I need something different vs the nitryfying bacteria, what else is out there to additional bacteria. I know of zeobak and I think aquaforest has some but what else could I do to help things out and kick them to the curb once and for all, any suggestions?

 

[Aqua Man]

Genesis

In their planktonic state, these bacteria serve as a highly nutritious food source for corals and zooplankton. Learn more and see RF-Genesis!

www.polyplab.com

A couple reports of this product helping the battle. I like that it gives a bacterial density per ML.

 

[ScottB]

So what other bacteria strains can I add to increase diversity, I have mb7 but think I need something different vs the nitryfying bacteria, what else is out there to additional bacteria. I know of zeobak and I think aquaforest has some but what else could I do to help things out and kick them to the curb once and for all, any suggestions?

I feel like all the bottled bacterias are just nitrifyers, which I believe we all have plenty of. But I can be cynical sometimes.

I prefer adding bacteria from other established systems or the ocean. The "wild" natural stuff you can get with rock, rubble, mud. It is not a quick fix, but I do feel it is a lasting one.

There is no way of ridding dinos entirely. (Well there is bleach I suppose.) They will always lead a marginal existence in our live systems until we allow them to flourish by stripping nutrient or otherwise compromise their competitors.

 

[ScottB]

Not sure what lowered my PO4 so much, scratching my head with that one.

Given the opportunity, dinos can replicate super fast. I don't know that is has been proven, but it FEELS like they could be very effective phosphate consumers.

@taricha has this ever been tested?

 

[taricha]

Given the opportunity, dinos can replicate super fast. I don't know that is has been proven, but it FEELS like they could be very effective phosphate consumers.

@taricha has this ever been tested?

"The characterization of the nutrient uptake kinetics showed that this species [ostreopsis ovata] has higher Vmax and higher affinity values for P uptake than for N. In addition, a study performed with cultures grown at different N/P ratios, showed that alkaline phosphatase activity was induced when external P was depleted or present in low amounts. These findings attest to the high efficiency of O. cf. ovata in both inorganic and organic P acquisition, an aspect that could confer advantages towards competing species."
-Inorganic nutrients uptake and organic phosphorus utilization by Ostreopsis cf. ovata (abstract)

"The Amphidinium sp. was eurytrophic, with a great facility for luxury consumption and the ability to store nitrate and phosphate for several generations."
-Physiological ecology and possible control strategy of a toxic marine dinoflagellate, Amphidinium sp., from the benthos of a mariculture pond

So in short, yes. Dinos are quite good at taking in P and can store it in abundance. We often note that trying to starve out dinos by lowering P like you can many other algae, just doesn't work for dinos.

We're not saying that they don't like P. We're saying they are really good at getting and managing P even when it's scarce.

 

[bishoptf]

I feel like all the bottled bacterias are just nitrifyers, which I believe we all have plenty of. But I can be cynical sometimes.

I prefer adding bacteria from other established systems or the ocean. The "wild" natural stuff you can get with rock, rubble, mud. It is not a quick fix, but I do feel it is a lasting one.

There is no way of ridding dinos entirely. (Well there is bleach I suppose.) They will always lead a marginal existence in our live systems until we allow them to flourish by stripping nutrient or otherwise compromise their competitors.

Yeah I have a mix of live rock and dry rock and yet here I am, it's not too bad today, I did a 20% water change to remove the chemi-clean and trying to get things back to where they were. I am trying to fins some Aqua forest Life Source mud, I think that would be good but trying to find some other alternatives to get more diversity.

 

[marcus aurelius]

Can anyone help?