Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[K. Steven]

Is everyone using Seachem Flourish Phosphorus as their PO4 supplement?

 

[Lowefx]

@McCarroll, PLEASE reference post #72 and get back to me.

 

[mcarroll]

Could swore I did already....twice, in fact. But I don't see any replies or PM's....do one of us have another thread going or something?

Lemme see here...

 

[mcarroll]

@mccarroll this thread has giving me another chance of hope to fight these dinos. I have spoke to you before regarding this problem.

Alright, I know I've watched your vid before, and I thought I even remembered going something like "Hey @taricha what do you think?"

That seems like a pretty hetrogenous community (dino's, diatoms, etc) compared to the outbreak photos and vids I've seen which are overall very homogenous.

So I'm not sure you're in the same boat as most of the other folks.

That said, it does look like some Ostreopsis wheeling around in that crowd, so I would take care not to starve the tank. (Only in favor of all their competitors and predators....not as a move vs Ostreopsis.)

But read on....

I also run a ULNS (Zeovit system) and after reading this thread, my po4 and n03 have been near 0 since I cycled the tank.

This "can be" okay, but is not in most folks's tanks. I'm willing to believe that if you follow Zeo's instructions carefully it can work.

My sps and lps colors, PE, and growth are great

This definitely doesn't sound like the "usual" dino case where the tank has been starved.

Can you post a full tank shot?
Has the lighting, flow and other aspects of the tank been pretty stable before and during the appearance of the dino's? What can you tell me about when they appreared?

Questions: Are certain p04 or n03 products recommended for dosing?
For a 120g, where do I want my p04 and n03 levels to rise to, and for how long?

Nothing in particular....they are plant fertilizers and/or stump remover products. Specracide Stump Remover Granules are pure KNO3. Beyond that Seachem and Brightwell both offer commercial nitrogen and phosphate additives – probably the way to go for most folks.

Not really a specific set of numbers either....it doesn't really sound like your system is starved. (Numbers are helpful, but don't tell the whole story.)

Show me a tank shot and a little more of the history (see questions above) and we're figure something out.

(And if you haven't already read through the links in the first post and maybe poked around related sections of my blog, I'd recommend both. )

 

[taricha]

I want to give dosing p04 and n03 a shot and see if this can help me out.

I hope this works, but I will post my results as we work through this. I've tried bleach, h202, lights out (blanket over tank) and nothing has worked...

That video is mostly large-cell amphidinium. I think your nutrient approach is sensible.
Uv or other methods that target water column will be useless. Metro not helpful, Darkness useless too, and their ability to go down into the sand makes them less susceptible to chemical attacks like bleach and h2o2.
They are kinda hard to kill, but the good news is they are pretty low-toxin, and some tough grazers do eat them.

 

[mcarroll]

@Jolanta I think a long-term blackout could work, but that may simply inspire spore formation so they come back when the lights come back on. (Me surmising....that's not from the literature.)

High temperatures (tropical numbers), and available nutrients (N, P and C) seem to be Ostreopsis's main preferences. They basically like ideal growing conditions.

Reducing N, C and temp specifically would seem to be very desirable if you can come up with a good set of methods. Any thoughts on this?

When you get down to talking about specific strains of Ostreopsis, then there seem to be differences in light preferences (among other things) which we might be able to exploit too.

Additionally, polyunsaturated aldehydes (PUA's) have been documented as suppressing Ostreopsis to an extent. Interesting that PUA's are apparently a natural byproduct of predation on diatoms by copepods. No copepods? No Diatoms? No natural suppression. It's just one angle of natural suppression that we might be able to enlist– there are others.

And according to research, they do still seem subject to competition and predation in an otherwise healthy ecosystem......for example, @brandon429 (correct me if wrong) seems to have a co-existing population of Ostreopsis, and I think I've seen one or two other folks document them as well.

Proactive measures like...

• adding copepods
• adding larger grazers like snails
• adding detritus, sand or rocks, corals, etc from a healthy tank, etc

...are also recommended to help build a healthier diversity of microbial life during the recovery.

 

[mcarroll]

That video is mostly large-cell amphidinium. I think your nutrient approach is sensible.
Uv or other methods that target water column will be useless. Metro not helpful, Darkness useless too, and their ability to go down into the sand makes them less susceptible to chemical attacks like bleach and h2o2.
They are kinda hard to kill, but the good news is they are pretty low-toxin, and some tough grazers do eat them.

Is it just me or were there some O. ovata wheeling around in there as well?

One comes into focus right about 7 seconds in the vid but I thought I saw more later too:


@Lowefx I would approach increasing nutrients cautiously (slowly) since things sound like they are mostly going OK. Tell me what you think about the rest of post #84.

 

[taricha]

Is it just me or were there some O. ovata wheeling around in there as well?

One comes into focus right about 7 seconds in the vid but I thought I saw more later too:

I don't see any. I see large cell amphidinium, a spherical (probably) dinoflagellate of some sort - at around 7 seconds, some pinnate diatoms, and not much else.

 

[mcarroll]

Updated the main post with a note about ID and about Ostreopsis.

 

[mcarroll]

I don't see any. I see large cell amphidinium, a spherical (probably) dinoflagellate of some sort - at around 7 seconds, some pinnate diatoms, and not much else.

Cool! Still interesting that it seems to be a more heterogenous group than in at least some recent photo's/videos.

 

[mcarroll]

@Lowefx I think these are all good signs for your tank.....still would like some more details from post #84 though.

 

[mcarroll]

Is everyone using Seachem Flourish Phosphorus as their PO4 supplement?

Thought this had an answer, but now I don't see one......

Those are popular. DIY KNO3, as well as Brightwell's products have also been used.

 

[taricha]

Cool! Still interesting that it seems to be a more heterogenous group than in at least some recent photo's/videos.

Yep. Dinos love a monoculture. If you can push the system far from dinos only (even if you still have bunches of them) you're probably headed the right way.

 

[K. Steven]

I'm going to try getting some detritus, rubble, algae, pods, etc. from a long-lived local tank to boost diversity. Currently, I'm bringing my NO3 down, then will begin dosing PO4 slowly to reach a balance. Right now, NO3 is 25 and PO4 is undetectable, so this imbalance may be a culprit and not allowing other organisms to compete.

 

[Lowefx]

@Lowefx I think these are all good signs for your tank.....still would like some more details from post #84 though.

Little change of plans. Bought a house and just moved. After sucking all water out and some sand, I replaced with 1 20lb of live sand. Not sure how long it may be before I see dinos again. I'll keep track tho.

 

[Jolanta]

@Jolanta I think a long-term blackout could work, but that may simply inspire spore formation so they come back when the lights come back on. (Me surmising....that's not from the literature.)

High temperatures (tropical numbers), and available nutrients (N, P and C) seem to be Ostreopsis's main preferences. They basically like ideal growing conditions.

Reducing N, C and temp specifically would seem to be very desirable if you can come up with a good set of methods. Any thoughts on this?

When you get down to talking about specific strains of Ostreopsis, then there seem to be differences in light preferences (among other things) which we might be able to exploit too.

Additionally, polyunsaturated aldehydes (PUA's) have been documented as suppressing Ostreopsis to an extent. Interesting that PUA's are apparently a natural byproduct of predation on diatoms by copepods. No copepods? No Diatoms? No natural suppression. It's just one angle of natural suppression that we might be able to enlist– there are others.

And according to research, they do still seem subject to competition and predation in an otherwise healthy ecosystem......for example, @brandon429 (correct me if wrong) seems to have a co-existing population of Ostreopsis, and I think I've seen one or two other folks document them as well.

Proactive measures like...

• adding copepods
• adding larger grazers like snails
• adding detritus, sand or rocks, corals, etc from a healthy tank, etc

...are also recommended to help build a healthier diversity of microbial life during the recovery.

Thank you mcarroll, I can do some experiments if you want, my friend told me he will take my corals and also fish so I can try some other methods if you like to before I do a restart, I would like my English to be better I really dont know what PUAs are, its some kind of medicacion? If you want I do some experiments, tell me and I can try.

 

[Reeferhigh]

Jolanta, seen as though you have no livestock why don't you try large amounts of copper dosing. From what I have read copper should work.

 

[mcarroll]

From what I have read copper should work.

Sounds interesting – link?

 

[Jolanta]

Jolanta, seen as though you have no livestock why don't you try large amounts of copper dosing. From what I have read copper should work.

But copper wont be absorbed by rock so I couldnt use it after restart? I think it will kill all in the tank so it would be the same as add muriatic acid or a lot or bleach or Im wrong?

 

[mcarroll]

Copper isn't always as tough as folks make it out to be.....seawater has a fair amount of copper in it to begin with, not none.

My favorite anecdote is a gorilla crab I once knew that survived at least two or three full-on copper treatments.