Dinoflagellates - Please assist with identification

[nitrox2000]

Affected tank 500 litres (around 135 gl) 5 years

I have recently been battling with what I believed to be Cyano for the months.
After the frustration of adding bottles of Tropic Marin Cyo-Control and other products to combat Cyano, I finally had enough and used Chemiclean!

After the treatment I was not convinced it had worked as I still could see rusty red patches in the sand bed so proceeded to siphon as much out as possible and replace with new washed dry sand, ran carbon to remove the Chemiclean (As skimmer was still going nuts!!) and performed a few 20% water changes which made the tank look new again.

About a week and a half after I'm now facing the dreaded rusty looking sand bed once more (primarily around the bottom of the rock) and a dusty covering over parts of the aqua scape. I initially thought it was Cyano again, but then thought well I did add new sand, perhaps it's Diatoms and the new sand caused a mini cycle????

After more research I started leaning more towards dinoflagellates, but the fact my system has pretty high nutrients (Nitrate ranges between 15 - 20ppm and Phosphates 0.45ppm) I was more confused as we are told Dinos love low nutrient systems, but I now know this is a misconception!

Finally I had to know and purchased a microscope to identify the culprit for my own piece of mind and to obviously target using the appropriate method to fix the issue, well at least for now!!

I have now identified that I have dinoflagellates and believe these to be the "Ostreopsis" variety, but I keep looking at more and more samples and have started to confuse myself, starting to think I may have two varieties, perhaps "Amphidinium" too? - I assume you can have both varieties present at the same time, as it makes no sense as to why you couldn't?

Please can I get the opinion of the community as to what variety you believe I'm up against as I need a second opinion?

See below YouTube videos from microscope:







Appreciate all input and thank you for taking the time to help.

Thanks

Nitrox

 

[Dan_P]

Affected tank 500 litres (around 135 gl) 5 years

I have recently been battling with what I believed to be Cyano for the months.
After the frustration of adding bottles of Tropic Marin Cyo-Control and other products to combat Cyano, I finally had enough and used Chemiclean!

After the treatment I was not convinced it had worked as I still could see rusty red patches in the sand bed so proceeded to siphon as much out as possible and replace with new washed dry sand, ran carbon to remove the Chemiclean (As skimmer was still going nuts!!) and performed a few 20% water changes which made the tank look new again.

About a week and a half after I'm now facing the dreaded rusty looking sand bed once more (primarily around the bottom of the rock) and a dusty covering over parts of the aqua scape. I initially thought it was Cyano again, but then thought well I did add new sand, perhaps it's Diatoms and the new sand caused a mini cycle????

After more research I started leaning more towards dinoflagellates, but the fact my system has pretty high nutrients (Nitrate ranges between 15 - 20ppm and Phosphates 0.45ppm) I was more confused as we are told Dinos love low nutrient systems, but I now know this is a misconception!

Finally I had to know and purchased a microscope to identify the culprit for my own piece of mind and to obviously target using the appropriate method to fix the issue, well at least for now!!

I have now identified that I have dinoflagellates and believe these to be the "Ostreopsis" variety, but I keep looking at more and more samples and have started to confuse myself, starting to think I may have two varieties, perhaps "Amphidinium" too? - I assume you can have both varieties present at the same time, as it makes no sense as to why you couldn't?

Please can I get the opinion of the community as to what variety you believe I'm up against as I need a second opinion?

See below YouTube videos from microscope:







Appreciate all input and thank you for taking the time to help.

Thanks

Nitrox

Compare yours to Amphidinium photos on the internet

 

[nitrox2000]

Compare yours to Amphidinium photos on the internet

Exactly what I have done, but my analysis is inconclusive!
Thank you for your input.

 

[nitrox2000]

I have once again reflected on what "Dan_P" suggested and checked further but my identification is still inconclusive as before.

Most images and videos of "Amphidinium" show the dino with a hook like mouth (see image below) and usually a prominent circle shape visible, where I don't really see this entirely from my samples.

I notice my dinos have more of a white line across the mouth end and not the hook, which is the main reason I need a second opinion, although I'm starting to think that they are not "Ostreopsis" now as the shape doesn't appear sharp enough at the mouth end (teardrop shape), but always thought that the swim pattern, spinning on an axis, was how "Ostreopsis" behaved.

Please anyone else have an opinion on the variety in the videos as I have a UV sterilizer ready to go and may be the wrong approach?

Appreciate all comments

Nitrox

 

[EnterName]

You are right that dinoflagellates are common in ultra low nutrient environments, but they can also cause such environments themselves and don't actually need low nutrient levels. They will have a lot more competition for space, light, and nutrients in environments that are favorable to other organisms, so they seem to thrive when nutrients are low or something else limits algae and bacteria growth.

If I had to take a guess, I would say the microbiology is still messed up from Chemiclean. You will need to continue running activated charcoal and wait for the microbiology to re-establish, which might take a while. That's probably also why you seem to have a species that doesn't match the more commonly found ones in reef tanks.

The swimming behavior is similar to Ostreopsis, but it doesn't seem to keep its "head" pointed towards the center it cycles which the "common" Ostreopsis species seems to do. However, there are a few Amphidinium species (e.g. species F or G) that look similar (e.g. no. 5, 6, and 11), and I'm struggling to find an Ostreopsis species of similar shape.

I would be very happy if you could post some images in my microscopy thread. :) Maybe some day we will be able to identify them properly.

 

[nitrox2000]

You are right that dinoflagellates are common in ultra low nutrient environments, but they can also cause such environments themselves and don't actually need low nutrient levels. They will have a lot more competition for space, light, and nutrients in environments that are favorable to other organisms, so they seem to thrive when nutrients are low or something else limits algae and bacteria growth.

If I had to take a guess, I would say the microbiology is still messed up from Chemiclean. You will need to continue running activated charcoal and wait for the microbiology to re-establish, which might take a while. That's probably also why you seem to have a species that doesn't match the more commonly found ones in reef tanks.

The swimming behavior is similar to Ostreopsis, but it doesn't seem to keep its "head" pointed towards the center it cycles which the "common" Ostreopsis species seems to do. However, there are a few Amphidinium species (e.g. species F or G) that look similar (e.g. no. 5, 6, and 11), and I'm struggling to find an Ostreopsis species of similar shape.

I would be very happy if you could post some images in my microscopy thread. :) Maybe some day we will be able to identify them properly.

Appreciate your input and as the swimming pattern is similar to "Ostreopsis" but not so much the shape, I think is what has fuelled my confusion as to the species.

I think as there is no snotty film across the rock scape or sand, only rusty brown dust, I'm leaning now towards the "Amphidinium" variety after looking through the links you posted, I too see similarities, so thank you.

I will post some images as requested on your Microscopy thread and appreciate you time in replying to the this thread.

Nitrox

 

[saltyhog]

Those are Large Cell Amphidinium dinos. They are best treated with waterglass dosing and increasing biodiversity. They are not toxic but can take a long time to get control of in some tanks.

 

[EnterName]

Those are Large Cell Amphidinium dinos. They are best treated with waterglass dosing and increasing biodiversity. They are not toxic but can take a long time to get control of in some tanks.

The image shared here: https://www.reef2reef.com/posts/14038690/
shows large cell amphidinium that's right, but the posted videos show something of a different shape, and the swimming behavior is different as well. That's why we are struggling to identify the species.

 

[nitrox2000]

Guys a quick update on the assumed to be LCA dinos. Well I purchased a product sold by 3DReefing called the "Sand Bed UV Sweeper" (link below) and I can tell you that within 3 days of using this my sand bed is almost clear of rusty stains from the LCA and are for sure losing.

Sand Bed UV Sweeper

Introducing the UV Sweeper – the ultimate tool for maintaining a pristine sand bed. This innovative device will effectively help control dinoflagellates and diatoms while preserving the delicate organisms beneath the surface. The UV Sweeper is at the core of a process to help shift the...

3dreefing.com

Treated with the UV Sweeper and additional Microbactor7, Copepods and Phyto and stopped dosing Silica and I can tell you for a fact this product works for sand dwelling dinos.

Product is available in the UK too (where I'm based) via AquaPrint

Sand Bed UV Sweeper - Aqua Print

The UV Sweeper – the ultimate tool for maintaining a pristine sand bed.

aquaprint.uk

 

[EnterName]

Guys a quick update on the assumed to be LCA dinos. Well I purchased a product sold by 3DReefing called the "Sand Bed UV Sweeper" (link below) and I can tell you that within 3 days of using this my sand bed is almost clear of rusty stains from the LCA and are for sure losing.

Sand Bed UV Sweeper

Introducing the UV Sweeper – the ultimate tool for maintaining a pristine sand bed. This innovative device will effectively help control dinoflagellates and diatoms while preserving the delicate organisms beneath the surface. The UV Sweeper is at the core of a process to help shift the...

3dreefing.com

Treated with the UV Sweeper and additional Microbactor7, Copepods and Phyto and stopped dosing Silica and I can tell you for a fact this product works for sand dwelling dinos.

Product is available in the UK too (where I'm based) via AquaPrint

Sand Bed UV Sweeper - Aqua Print

The UV Sweeper – the ultimate tool for maintaining a pristine sand bed.

aquaprint.uk

I'm very curious how this turns out in the long run. Please keep us updated :)

The UV sweeper surely kills most of the dino cells but it will also kill/damage many other microorganisms that live on the sand and I'm wondering how this will affect results long-term.

 

[nitrox2000]

Agreed, I too thought the same thing originally but as you hover over the sand bed (around 1/2 inch) and try not to touch the sand directly, the theory is that you sterilize the dinos on the top layer and the light doesn't penetrate into the sand bed where the good bacteria lives.

Always dose good bottled bacteria after use as a precaution as you may knock back some good bacteria without wanting to.

Just finished the 3rd day sweep over sand and I can tell you it is now almost all gone, leaving white sand!!
Obviously I'm under no illusions that they are gone completely so will continue to test under microscope and post findings.

But if this works how it seems to, this could be the silver bullet for LCA moving forward without the need of inducing a diatom bloom.

 

[CHSUB]

After more research I started leaning more towards dinoflagellates, but the fact my system has pretty high nutrients (Nitrate ranges between 15 - 20ppm and Phosphates 0.45ppm) I was more confused as we are told Dinos love low nutrient systems, but I now know this is a misconception!

Yes, it is false idea that has become gospel in the “new” hobby: raising nutrients so mythical biodiversity suddenly springs to existence outcompeting dreaded dinoflagellates.
Proper control of dinos simply requires better maintenance, like it always has…..

 

[nitrox2000]

Yes, it is false idea that has become gospel in the “new” hobby: raising nutrients so mythical biodiversity suddenly springs to existence outcompeting dreaded dinoflagellates.
Proper control of dinos simply requires better maintenance, like it always has…..

Agreed!

Albeit I believe my outbreak was a result of using "Chemiclean" that weakened the microbiology as EnterName suggested earlier in the thread.

But if my maintenance practices had been better there would have been no need to use Chemiclean in the first place, I think we are all a little guilty of this from time to time!

 

[George03]

I had a case that was certain to be ostrios, the visual inspection was obvious because that was all I could see . Then I got this result from the lab. These are toxic and why I had a high die off rate. I am not sure we can rely on web images at this stage of knowledge in the public domain.

 

[EnterName]

I had a case that was certain to be ostrios, the visual inspection was obvious because that was all I could see . Then I got this result from the lab. These are toxic and why I had a high die off rate. I am not sure we can rely on web images at this stage of knowledge in the public domain.

Testudodinium maedaense K.Katsumata & T.Horiguchi :: AlgaeBase

Algaebase :: Listing the World's Algae

www.algaebase.org

Testudodinium maedaense looks similar to the commonly found Ostreopsis, but the head/tip is different: It's not really pointy and has two cuts/grooves.

I agree that optical identification is difficult and prone to error, but verifying that it's dinoflagellates and not something else is arguably more important than the genus or even species. There isn't much you can do with knowing the exact species anyway, so I would go through the whole list of possible treatment methods regardless of species.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Looks to be amphidium and Low nutrients are often given blame. When we see zero readings, automatically we assume this is the cause but by the time you see zero numbers, its because the dino has consumed the po4 and no3 and are multiplying and in turn many dose no3 and po4 to bring numbers up not realizing they are feeding these flagellates even more.
Its biological deficiencies that are causing the dino structure and Its important though to identify the type of dino for most effective battle.
No light is first key followed by the addition of bacteria to overcome the bad bacteria allowing them to thrive
Prepare by starting by blowing this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles. Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10% IF you have light dependant corals such as SPS) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights which works as an oxidizer. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off. During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as micro bacter 7 or XLM) per 10 gallons. Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED AMINO OR ADD NOPOX which is food for dinos, however you can feed coral, food which will help no3 and po4 to increase. If increasing nutrients, try to keep no3 to about 5 until you are done battling these cells.
Doing a daily siphoning will help greatly But . . . . . Siphoning will reduce nutrients , so siphon the water into/through a filter sock and save the water and return it back to tank. Obviously clean the filter sock eac

 

[George03]

One year to stability. I can contribute, I have a small tank, and I use a lot of automation to keep things at a set point. All these counter measures do work, and produce good short term triage. I went into this purposefully exposing a wealth of freshwater experience, e.g. expectations. I added bio diversity from different sources, i.e. gulf rubble, live rocks, live fiji sand, bottled stuff, dr. Tims, bactrs, etc. I had a lot of wobble, but over time, with the help of stability controls, like the above advice, over time, I was finally able to get up each morning and see the tank, just like it was the day before. Tranquil, stable, relatively clean, no algae outbreaks, growing. It is a journey, but worth it.