Disease identification- brook? Velvet or ich?

[crabwizard89]

Hello all! Long time lurker, first time poster. I'm having a sad emergency with my tank.

On Sunday night my fish were all swimming around and looked fine. Monday evening noticed my gramma wasn't eating at feeding time, but she was still swimming around the tank a bit showing no signs of disease. just figured she'd been filling herself up on copepods. On Tuesday, my Gramma had been hiding in her cave all day and looked like she was breathing heavy, but thought maybe she was stressed for some reason since I recently changed the flow of the tank and it's not unusual for her to hide for a day or two. My clownfish were looking and acting normal.

This morning I found my gramma dead, no visible signs of disease and one of my clowns has fading skin on the mouth and face, both are breathing heavy. This is a newer tank started with dry rock that cycled for 2 months and fish were moved in a month ago after cycling finished. I've had these fish for 3+ years with no problems. I haven't added any new fish, the only thing I've added were some pods about a month ago and snails for CUC. I didn't think inverts were a carrier of brook (which is what I think it is). The only thing I can think of is the Gramma already had some sort of disease that surfaced after I moved her? She got a bit stressed during the move between tanks.

Is it ich? Velvet? Brook? I'm setting up a hospital tank right now, but fear it's already too late for the clowns considering how fast my Gramma deteriorated

Tank parameters:
Salinity - 1.026
PH - 8.3
Ammonia, Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - <5
Phosphate - .03
Temp - 77.5-78

Also dealing with a diatom bloom and a small patch of cyano, but didn't think new tank uglies were of much concern.

I appreciate all your help.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hello all! Long time lurker, first time poster. I'm having a sad emergency with my tank.

On Sunday night my fish were all swimming around and looked fine. Monday evening noticed my gramma wasn't eating at feeding time, but she was still swimming around the tank a bit showing no signs of disease. just figured she'd been filling herself up on copepods. On Tuesday, my Gramma had been hiding in her cave all day and looked like she was breathing heavy, but thought maybe she was stressed for some reason since I recently changed the flow of the tank and it's not unusual for her to hide for a day or two. My clownfish were looking and acting normal.

This morning I found my gramma dead, no visible signs of disease and one of my clowns has fading skin on the mouth and face, both are breathing heavy. This is a newer tank started with dry rock that cycled for 2 months and fish were moved in a month ago after cycling finished. I've had these fish for 3+ years with no problems. I haven't added any new fish, the only thing I've added were some pods about a month ago and snails for CUC. I didn't think inverts were a carrier of brook (which is what I think it is). The only thing I can think of is the Gramma already had some sort of disease that surfaced after I moved her? She got a bit stressed during the move between tanks.

Is it ich? Velvet? Brook? I'm setting up a hospital tank right now, but fear it's already too late for the clowns considering how fast my Gramma deteriorated

Tank parameters:
Salinity - 1.026
PH - 8.3
Ammonia, Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - <5
Phosphate - .03
Temp - 77.5-78

Also dealing with a diatom bloom and a small patch of cyano, but didn't think new tank uglies were of much concern.

I appreciate all your help.

On the clown appears to be bacterial and will need treatment in a separate tank using seachem neoplex or kanaplex. Were fish breathing normal or rapid prior to loss?
Need brighter pics, even video for assessment

 

[crabwizard89]

On the clown appears to be bacterial and will need treatment in a separate tank using seachem neoplex or kanaplex. Were fish breathing normal or rapid prior to loss?
Need brighter pics, even video for assessment

Thanks for the feedback. Clowns are opening their mouth frequently and appear to be breathing rapidly, at least the one pictured. My other clown seems less symptomatic at the moment. Gramma also appeared to be breathing rapidly, but it was hard to tell since she spent the last day in her cave and I didn't want to chase her out to avoid stressing her further.

I will share better pics and video in a little while when I get home.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks for the feedback. Clowns are opening their mouth frequently and appear to be breathing rapidly, at least the one pictured. My other clown seems less symptomatic at the moment. Gramma also appeared to be breathing rapidly, but it was hard to tell since she spent the last day in her cave and I didn't want to chase her out to avoid stressing her further.

I will share better pics and video in a little while when I get home.

Please do with pics as symptoms described also point to flukes which Grammas are susceptible to.
If flukes, a 5 min freshwater dip will offer temporary relief - same temp as display tank

 

[MnFish1]

So - then the only thing new in the tank is the CUC. There is no chance that something else could have been added? It's hard to say - from my point of view unless one of the fish were carrying the disease - and as you said the stress caused an issue. I'm assuming that salinity, etc were all good during the move - and the parameters matched. Were the fish left in some temporary container, that could have had an ammonia spike (causing skin injury and then infection?:). I'm not aware of a carrier state of brooklynella - or that it is carried in on CUC. Maybe @Jay Hemdal knows more about that issue - PS - the symptoms sound more like Broolynella as already stated - and more pictures would help!

 

[crabwizard89]

Please do with pics as symptoms described also point to flukes which Grammas are susceptible to.
If flukes, a 5 min freshwater dip will offer temporary relief - same temp as display tank

So in the couple hours I was away from home, it seems like the discoloration on the clown has greatly diminished but it's still breathing rapidly. I took more pictures, but now it's not as apparent. I should've mentioned that I thought maybe lack of oxygen might've been the cause and I've been running a skimmer since last night. I also noticed some striations in the gills, but thought this might be normal?

Just got back from the LFS and picked up neoplex, focus, and acraflavine (this on their recommendation). Currently heating up the QT.

Sorry about the video, tried to keep it in focus as much as possible.

 

[crabwizard89]

So - then the only thing new in the tank is the CUC. There is no chance that something else could have been added? It's hard to say - from my point of view unless one of the fish were carrying the disease - and as you said the stress caused an issue. I'm assuming that salinity, etc were all good during the move - and the parameters matched. Were the fish left in some temporary container, that could have had an ammonia spike (causing skin injury and then infection?:). I'm not aware of a carrier state of brooklynella - or that it is carried in on CUC. Maybe @Jay Hemdal knows more about that issue - PS - the symptoms sound more like Broolynella as already stated - and more pictures would help!

Yes, everything else including a coral frag (which I dipped anyway as a precaution) came from my previous tank which has been up and running for 3 years. The CUC were the only new addition to the tank. Parameters were all matched before transfer, and the fish were only in a bucket during acclimation. They've all been in there for 3-4 weeks now and acting normal and visibly healthy, so I'm surprised there weren't any issues before now. I've never lost fish before, I guess there's a first time for everything :loudly-crying-face:

 

[vetteguy53081]

So in the couple hours I was away from home, it seems like the discoloration on the clown has greatly diminished but it's still breathing rapidly. I took more pictures, but now it's not as apparent. I should've mentioned that I thought maybe lack of oxygen might've been the cause and I've been running a skimmer since last night. I also noticed some striations in the gills, but thought this might be normal?

Just got back from the LFS and picked up neoplex, focus, and acraflavine (this on their recommendation). Currently heating up the QT.

Sorry about the video, tried to keep it in focus as much as possible.

Focus is a binder and will do very little for this. Running air stone effective for increase in oxygen and assure you are using reliable test for ammonia. If any gill issue, often a 5 min freshwater dip in tap water same temp as display tank will offer temporary relief

 

[crabwizard89]

Focus is a binder and will do very little for this. Running air stone effective for increase in oxygen and assure you are using reliable test for ammonia. If any gill issue, often a 5 min freshwater dip in tap water same temp as display tank will offer temporary relief

Thank you. I got the focus as a binder for the neoplex, figured I'd use that to medicate their food since they seem to still be eating for now

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you. I got the focus as a binder for the neoplex, figured I'd use that to medicate their food since they seem to still be eating for now

The clown is breathing too fast. I don't see any symptoms of ich or Brooklynella. That leaves water quality and/or velvet as the most likely cause of this.

Don't use Focus to feed antibiotics in the food unless you calculate the dose properly (very hard to do!). Otherwise, you're just adding an unknown amount of medication in the food, and you could be too low (or more likely, too high). Here is my thread on oral medications:

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods Jay Hemdal c. 2020 Oral medications are an excellent way to target internal diseases of fishes. Marine fish absorb aquarium water, so in certain cases, they “drink” enough medication from the water to effect a cure. However, freshwater fish actively export...

www.reef2reef.com

Neomycin is usually used as a bath, none of my resources give an oral dose for that.

 

[crabwizard89]

The clown is breathing too fast. I don't see any symptoms of ich or Brooklynella. That leaves water quality and/or velvet as the most likely cause of this.

Don't use Focus to feed antibiotics in the food unless you calculate the dose properly (very hard to do!). Otherwise, you're just adding an unknown amount of medication in the food, and you could be too low (or more likely, too high). Here is my thread on oral medications:

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods Jay Hemdal c. 2020 Oral medications are an excellent way to target internal diseases of fishes. Marine fish absorb aquarium water, so in certain cases, they “drink” enough medication from the water to effect a cure. However, freshwater fish actively export...

www.reef2reef.com

Neomycin is usually used as a bath, none of my resources give an oral dose for that.

Thanks for jumping in! Appreciate your input and good to know about focus. I've never had to medicate my fish before. Could Velvet lie dormant for a while before fish are affected? I'm trying to narrow down how this happened.

Since my parameters seem to be stable (tested mostly with Salifert and Hanna), the only other thing I can think of would be lack of oxygen. Since turning on my skimmer last night and opening it all the way and increasing surface agitation, even since this morning when I took the original pictures, the clowns seem to be a bit more active and coloration returning to normal.

 

[MnFish1]

The clown is breathing too fast. I don't see any symptoms of ich or Brooklynella. That leaves water quality and/or velvet as the most likely cause of this.

Don't use Focus to feed antibiotics in the food unless you calculate the dose properly (very hard to do!). Otherwise, you're just adding an unknown amount of medication in the food, and you could be too low (or more likely, too high). Here is my thread on oral medications:

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods Jay Hemdal c. 2020 Oral medications are an excellent way to target internal diseases of fishes. Marine fish absorb aquarium water, so in certain cases, they “drink” enough medication from the water to effect a cure. However, freshwater fish actively export...

www.reef2reef.com

Neomycin is usually used as a bath, none of my resources give an oral dose for that.

I would completely avoid using neomycin/kanamycin as an oral dose - since the dose cannot be controlled - and there is a very narrow therapeutic window for these types of antibiotics. Agree with Jay!

 

[crabwizard89]

Just an update here. I'm thinking it may have been oxygen deprivation. Since turning the skimmer on last night and increasing the surface agitation, the discoloration and the breathing both seem to have improved in the last few hours. Skimmer is also pulling some dense skimmate, even all the way open so I'm wondering if there was something in the water. No noticable discoloration on the females face as before, and breathing doesn't seem as rapid and they're not opening their mouths like they were. I'll still be moving them to QT for observation and then medication if needed.

When I changed the flow in the tank the other day, I reduced surface agitation a little bit, but thought it would be okay between what I had and the travel through the sump. It appears not :/
I'll post again if there's any further change in their condition (or when they recover). Thanks to y'all for chiming in! Love this hobby but dang, this is my first truly stressful moment re: my fishes health :face-exhaling:

 

[crabwizard89]

Not sure why these didn't load with my last reply

 

[crabwizard89]

I would completely avoid using neomycin/kanamycin as an oral dose - since the dose cannot be controlled - and there is a very narrow therapeutic window for these types of antibiotics. Agree with Jay!

Appreciate the tip! I've been very lucky to never have ill fish in the last 3 years, so I'm still learning about medicating.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Not sure why these didn't load with my last reply

I was able to download these (after a bit, not sure what the issue was). The clowns seem to be breathing just a little fast in these videos, so I wonder if it was indeed lack of aeration?

Jay

 

[crabwizard89]

Hopefully my final update on this issue. The clowns had mostly returned to normal by the time the QT warmed up enough, but I still pulled them out of the DT for observation. They have not been medicated and are stable and breathing normally with no discoloration and behaving like clowns. I'll keep them in observation for another week, but then I'll probably add them back to DT.

After poring over every detail of my tank, my conclusion is that it must have been oxygen depletion caused by several factors.
-Changing the flow which reduced surface agitation, although I'm surprised because they came from a tank that had less surface agitation and never had an issue. Plus, there was still travel through the overflow and sump which I thought would offset the reduction in surface agitation.
-Skimmer was turned off due to light bioload in the tank and over-efficient biofilter. (Hardly any detectable nitrate in the water column between bacteria, algae, and live rock)
-possibly the few patches of cyano and the diatom bloom were consuming the rest of the available oxygen at night due to a decrease in photosynthesis
-i haven't ruled out that it's possible there was an ammonia spike that had already subsided by the time I tested for it, but I would think the clowns or inverts would've succumbed first due to their smaller size

It's still kind of a mystery, but given how quickly the clownfish bounced back after increasing oxygen levels in the tank, plus moving to QT with freshly made saltwater, leads me to think this is the most likely explanation. Thanks again to everyone who chimed in for your help in narrowing this down.

 

[daniel_mourra]

Any updates? Are they still ok?

 

[crabwizard89]

Any updates? Are they still ok?

Thanks for asking! Yes, they are still okay and have only gotten better since my last update. They've been moved back to the display tank and are their usual, clowny selves.