Failed Dr. Tim's: Follow-on Product?

[Bear22]

Guys,

I have attempted a cycle with Dr. Tim's cycling product and it's been an abject failed attempt.

Particulars:
9 days getting an ammonia indication (still).
9 days no nitrites detected.
Water temp raised to 85 degrees.
Salinity lowered to .021-.022
Water flow maximum.
No media added.
No light period.
Dry rock and sand bed present.

I am using unexpired API kits for detection not measuring (so please don't waste time discussing the merits of API test kits; that's been beat to death ad nauseam and point in fact Dr. Tim says they're good enough for detection).

Is this Fritz 900 turbo product worth looking into?

TIA,
G

 

[Fish Fan]

Did you add both Dr. Tim's One and Only product with the nitrifying bacteria, as well as his bottled ammonium chloride?

I don't think there's anything to worry about, a fishless cycle like this with Dr. Tim's products typically takes about 3 weeks or so.

If it helps, you really don't have to worry about nitrite, it's non toxic in saltwater tanks, and many here don't test for it. Here's a link with more info on that:
https://www.reef2reef.com/posts/4805029/
You simply need to wait for the ammonia to come down to nearly zero and then you can add some hardy livestock. I say "nearly zero" because, well, the API kit does indeed often show a result of about 0.25 ppm ammonia when other indicators would suggest the actual concentration is considerably lower. Even if real, ammonia at 0.25 ppm isn't really dangerous, so you could still proceed with some light stocking. And, I personally do not hate on API kits, they are not the best, but they get an unnecessary bad rap here on R2R, in my humble opinion.

The one thing to know about nitrite is that when it's present, if causes an artificially high result for nitrate testing. For that reason, you can't know your real nitrate concentration until the nitrite has gone down to zero. For that one reason, you *may* wish to test for nitrite towards the end of your cycle.

To answer your question about the Fritz product, yes, it is indeed said to work much faster than Dr. Tim's, so if you're really in a hurry you could try adding some. But please know that the Fritz product doesn't really provide the nitrifying bacteria that you want long term, it's more of a band-aid. The Dr. Tim's One and Only is said to have the correct species of bacteria that we're ultimately trying to grow.

I would personally just stick out the Dr. Tim's cycle for a couple more weeks, but you could add the Fritz product if you want to progress more quickly.

I hope that helps, and good luck!

 

[Bear22]

Did you add both Dr. Tim's One and Only product with the nitrifying bacteria, as well as his bottled ammonium chloride?

I don't think there's anything to worry about, a fishless cycle like this with Dr. Tim's products typically takes about 3 weeks or so.

If it helps, you really don't have to worry about nitrite, it's non toxic in saltwater tanks, and many here don't test for it. Here's a link with more info on that:
https://www.reef2reef.com/posts/4805029/
You simply need to wait for the ammonia to come down to nearly zero and then you can add some hardy livestock. I say "nearly zero" because, well, the API kit does indeed often show a result of about 0.25 ppm ammonia when other indicators would suggest the actual concentration is considerably lower. Even if real, ammonia at 0.25 ppm isn't really dangerous, so you could still proceed with some light stocking. And, I personally do not hate on API kits, they are not the best, but they get an unnecessary bad rap here on R2R, in my humble opinion.

The one thing to know about nitrite is that when it's present, if causes an artificially high result for nitrate testing. For that reason, you can't know your real nitrate concentration until the nitrite has gone down to zero. For that one reason, you *may* wish to test for nitrite towards the end of your cycle.

To answer your question about the Fritz product, yes, it is indeed said to work much faster than Dr. Tim's, so if you're really in a hurry you could try adding some. But please know that the Fritz product doesn't really provide the nitrifying bacteria that you want long term, it's more of a band-aid. The Dr. Tim's One and Only is said to have the correct species of bacteria that we're ultimately trying to grow.

I would personally just stick out the Dr. Tim's cycle for a couple more weeks, but you could add the Fritz product if you want to progress more quickly.

I hope that helps, and good luck!

Yes, I have been using the ammonium chloride drops per Dr. Tim's. Maybe Dr. Tim needs to adjust/bias the "expectation" schedule that reflects user experiences.

I have to say, in times past using good ole fashion Bio Spira has given me better results (fresh & salt) at a much lower price point.

I'd really like to advance the ball a bit by adding copepods prior to livestock. Does the tank need to be fully and completely cycled before doing so or are these guys hardy enough to put up with some NO2/NO3 (assuming I actually make some progress with Dr. Tim's)?

Thanks!

 

[Fish Fan]

Yes, I have been using the ammonium chloride drops per Dr. Tim's. Maybe Dr. Tim needs to adjust/bias the "expectation" schedule that reflects user experiences.

You're adding the ammonium chloride drops, that's good, but did you also add in his Dr. Tim's One and Only that contains the bacteria? You need both, the ammonia and the bacteria.

BioSpira was a great product, I don't believe it's available any more. Dr. Tim Hovanec himself was the lead scientist that identified the specific species of nitrifying bacteria included with the BioSpira, and I believe his One and Only product is an extension of that work, so Dr. Tim's One and Only is the closest thing we can get to BioSpira these days.

I have seen tanks that use his products and seem to cycle in a week, so it's possible, but that's an exception to the rule, from what I've seen from most members here using his system. More like +/- 3 weeks is about right for most tanks.

 

[NanoSteam]

It's one of the slowest bacteria products I've used. Took 12 days to see ammonia finally convert to nitrite so likely you'll see similar results as I have.

Ive used BioSpira twice and that finished conversion from Ammonia to Nitrate in 5 days both times. They say it's the same product but I'm not seeing it.

Anyway I'm not in a hurry so I'll let it ride for a little while longer until all the ammonia is gone. It's still registering 1ppm.

 

[Bear22]

It's one of the slowest bacteria products I've used. Took 12 days to see ammonia finally convert to nitrite so likely you'll see similar results as I have.

Ive used BioSpira twice and that finished conversion from Ammonia to Nitrate in 5 days both times. They say it's the same product but I'm not seeing it.

Anyway I'm not in a hurry so I'll let it ride for a little while longer until all the ammonia is gone. It's still registering 1ppm.

Answering both your post & Fish Fan's:

Yep using both the bacteria starter and ammonia chloride solution.

What bothers me is that it's been 9 days and no nitrites detected which means I have no idea if this stuff is even starting to work let alone working.

To add to my glowing past review of Bio Spira: I was living in hot and humid Houston at the time and the product would arrive through the mail, no insulated packaging, no gel cooling packs, and it would just work. And as you noted; work quickly.

Curiously, in the past 2 days there was a quick bloom of white stringy stuff (just about gone now). So, something is going on in there. Though, I have no idea if this is the good bacteria or if it's just undesirable heterotroph bacteria.

Kind Regards

 

[NanoSteam]

Answering both your post & Fish Fan's:

Yep using both the bacteria starter and ammonia chloride solution.

What bothers me is that it's been 9 days and no nitrites detected which means I have no idea if this stuff is even starting to work let alone working.

To add to my glowing past review of Bio Spira: I was living in hot and humid Houston at the time and the product would arrive through the mail, no insulated packaging, no gel cooling packs, and it would just work. And as you noted; work quickly.

Curiously, in the past 2 days there was a quick bloom of white stringy stuff (just about gone now). So, something is going on in there. Though, I have no idea if this is the good bacteria or if it's just undesirable heterotroph bacteria.

Kind Regards

Ive had the white stringy slime stuff before. It's usually the cause of using some form of carbon dosing like no pox, vodka, waste away, etc. Or it can also come from using cleaning products around the tank.

 

[Bear22]

Ive had the white stringy slime stuff before. It's usually the cause of using some form of carbon dosing like no pox, vodka, waste away, etc. Or it can also come from using cleaning products around the tank.

Interesting. I haven't dosed this tank with any kind of carbon dosing. The tank is fallow.

 

[mcarroll]

I have attempted a cycle with Dr. Tim's cycling product and it's been an abject failed attempt.

The natural method is foolproof, FYI.

I also like to point out that even Dr Tim says that fishless cycling is unnecessary.

I wish folks didn't push this method so hard....IMO it's a bad idea, especially for newbs since they get it wrong all the time (just google for "fishless cycling problem"....but that's usually who it's specifically aimed at.

If you drained the tank and refilled it, it would cycle on its own in 30-40 days, with no help from you. Then you just stock it nice and slow beginning with smaller critters and coral and working your way up to adding the fish at the end.....no ammonia spikes at all.

BTW, do you have a good book to use as a guide? If not what are you using so far? I recommend getting 1 or 2 good books to check yourself and online guidance against. Martin Moe is a great author to start with.

 

[Bear22]

The natural method is foolproof, FYI.

I also like to point out that even Dr Tim says that fishless cycling is unnecessary.

I wish folks didn't push this method so hard....IMO it's a bad idea, especially for newbs since they get it wrong all the time (just google for "fishless cycling problem"....but that's usually who it's specifically aimed at.

If you drained the tank and refilled it, it would cycle on its own in 30-40 days, with no help from you. Then you just stock it nice and slow beginning with smaller critters and coral and working your way up to adding the fish at the end.....no ammonia spikes at all.

BTW, do you have a good book to use as a guide? If not what are you using so far? I recommend getting 1 or 2 good books to check yourself and online guidance against. Martin Moe is a great author to start with.

I am not a "beginner" aquarist. Secondly, adding the proper catalysts (ammonia and cultured bacteria) is the more prudent approach to the cycling process.

Not chunking a hunk of decomposing shrimp and then marking that on a calendar.

 

[mcarroll]

I am not a "beginner" aquarist. Secondly, adding the proper catalysts (ammonia and cultured bacteria) is the more prudent approach to the cycling process.

Not chunking a hunk of decomposing shrimp and then marking that on a calendar.

Hm....that is just another ammonia spike method. Why not take Dr. Tim's word if you don't like mine? :)

The natural method is where you do nothing but wait and you do NOT cause an ammonia spike.

I'm curious what guide you're using?

 

[Bear22]

Hm....that is just another ammonia spike method. Why not take Dr. Tim's word if you don't like mine? :)

The natural method is where you do nothing but wait and you do NOT cause an ammonia spike.

I'm curious what guide you're using?

IMO, an ammonia presence/spike is not only desirable, but necessary if we are talking cycling here. Absolutely necessary in fact.

Dr. Tim's take on a fishless cycle is a bit pendantic don't you think? After all, if he were such a proponent then why didn't he "build" a business/product around a fishless cycling?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Answering both your post & Fish Fan's:

Yep using both the bacteria starter and ammonia chloride solution.

What bothers me is that it's been 9 days and no nitrites detected which means I have no idea if this stuff is even starting to work let alone working.

To add to my glowing past review of Bio Spira: I was living in hot and humid Houston at the time and the product would arrive through the mail, no insulated packaging, no gel cooling packs, and it would just work. And as you noted; work quickly.

Curiously, in the past 2 days there was a quick bloom of white stringy stuff (just about gone now). So, something is going on in there. Though, I have no idea if this is the good bacteria or if it's just undesirable heterotroph bacteria.

Kind Regards

Stop -- let’s back up.

You added bacteria and ammonia. Did the ammonia level actually drop and did you re-dose? Please be specific.

Have you continued adding either bottled bacteria or ammonia, or both?

The “white stringy stuff” is likely heterotrophic bacteria. They consume organics and ammonia but compete with nitrifiers... starving them.

Stop adding products. Put in a dead shrimp or a small pinch of food daily and let it break down naturally.

 

[Bear22]

Stop -- let’s back up.

You added bacteria and ammonia. Did the ammonia level actually drop and did you re-dose? Please be specific.


Have you continued adding either bottled bacteria or ammonia, or both?

The “white stringy stuff” is likely heterotrophic bacteria. They consume organics and ammonia but compete with nitrifiers... starving them.

Stop adding products. Put in a dead shrimp or a small pinch of food daily and let it break down naturally.

Following the instructions via the website/packaging. Plus, I watched a couple of YT vids, not to mention a presentation by Dr Tim at one of the MACNA events.

It knew that this process could be hit or miss based off user reviews.

I'll make the call as to "stop adding products"...

 

[BeanAnimal]

Following the instructions via the website/packaging. Plus, I watched a couple of YT vids, not to mention a presentation by Dr Tim at one of the MACNA events.

That is not what I asked you. I don't know or care what the package says. What I do know is how the nitrogen cycle works and how it can be short circuited and end up "stalled", especially when bottled bacteria products are used.

I'll make the call as to "stop adding products"...

Are you here for help or just to complain about Dr. Tim and be a combative?

 

[mcarroll]

IMO, an ammonia presence/spike is not only desirable, but necessary if we are talking cycling here. Absolutely necessary in fact.

Dr. Tim's take on a fishless cycle is a bit pendantic don't you think? After all, if he were such a proponent then why didn't he "build" a business/product around a fishless cycling?

Pedantic? It's one of his FAQ's, so you'd have to ask Dr. Tim what he thinks. I take him at his word that he thinks it's unnecessary...since this is literally what's in the FAQ. ;)

This is potentially getting off topic to the OP, but you've missed my point AND the entire point of Dr Tim's product as well as every derivative like BioSpira, et al.

Fishless Cycling is an "off-label usage" of such a product. The product was created to avoid the ammonia spike that is inherent to adding a bunch of livestock to a fresh tank. Add the product with the livestock – voila no ammonia spike. It's a product that has its place to be sure. There were already many ways to seed bio-media before Dr. Tim's patent(s), including commercial products. He didn't need to go to all the bother he did just for that.

The natural method requires that you do not add a bunch of livestock to the new tank all at once. That's the rub.

If you have further interests down this rabbit hole, I'd suggest opening a new thread and tag me in. There's definitely more to share on the topic if desired. (Maybe the OP is interested tho?)

For anyone who just wants to read on their own, this free PDF is a great science-based article on the topic...addresses the topic very completely, with references for the (even more) curious:

• SRAC 4502: How to Start a Biofilter

(SRAC = Southern Regional Aquaculture Center)

In fact, most of the pubs in their section on "recirculating systems" would make good base reading for anyone these days (a few are ultra-specific).....they cover a lot the same base topics books would have covered back in the day.

 

[Bear22]

Pedantic? It's one of his FAQ's, so you'd have to ask Dr. Tim what he thinks. I take him at his word that he thinks it's unnecessary...since this is literally what's in the FAQ. ;)

This is potentially getting off topic to the OP, but you've missed my point AND the entire point of Dr Tim's product as well as every derivative like BioSpira, et al.

Fishless Cycling is an "off-label usage" of such a product. The product was created to avoid the ammonia spike that is inherent to adding a bunch of livestock to a fresh tank. Add the product with the livestock – voila no ammonia spike. It's a product that has its place to be sure. There were already many ways to seed bio-media before Dr. Tim's patent(s), including commercial products. He didn't need to go to all the bother he did just for that.

The natural method requires that you do not add a bunch of livestock to the new tank all at once. That's the rub.

If you have further interests down this rabbit hole, I'd suggest opening a new thread and tag me in. There's definitely more to share on the topic if desired. (Maybe the OP is interested tho?)

For anyone who just wants to read on their own, this free PDF is a great science-based article on the topic...addresses the topic very completely, with references for the (even more) curious:

• SRAC 4502: How to Start a Biofilter

(SRAC = Southern Regional Aquaculture Center)

In fact, most of the pubs in their section on "recirculating systems" would make good base reading for anyone these days (a few are ultra-specific).....they cover a lot the same base topics books would have covered back in the day.

I am the original poster, lol. Did you read the ENTIRE thread or just commit the sin of reading the bottom two or three posts?

Here's my take on the old(er) method of tank cycling, that I don't think gets discussed much and this line of thinking certainly isn't original with me:

And that is the focus on tank cycling with the short-sighted goal of just getting through the nitrogen cycle versus having the right kind of bacteria. Think of it as long term probiotics with the health of the fauna in mind.

I've read/researched where what's really happening with old school tank cycling is that the nitrification process is as much being accomplished through competing heterotrophs. By competing, I mean that the less desirable bacteria are overshadowing the more beneficial bacteria. These researchers speculate that the more desirable bacteria are being added mainly through the vector of that first fish and/or coral being introduced. Or through the vector of a piece of LR from a prior established source.

Now given a choice: wouldn't you rather have the best of both worlds? That is, bacteria that are both nitrifying and super-beneficial from a long term probiotic standpoint? If so, then a person (such as my trying the product) would want to give a product a try such as Dr. Tim's, no?

 

[Bear22]

That is not what I asked you. I don't know or care what the package says. What I do know is how the nitrogen cycle works and how it can be short circuited and end up "stalled", especially when bottled bacteria products are used.



Are you here for help or just to complain about Dr. Tim and be a combative?

I should ask you that question are you here to provide an opinion? Or a useful opinion based off empirical experience with the product? To be perfectly candid, I am not interested in your opinion sans any empirical experience.

As far as "the don't add stuff" comment goes: just how many posts exist within this entire forum that addresses some type or types of additives (no matter the application)? Tens of thousands? More? (e.g., chemicals. medicines, amino acids, probiotics, foods, vitamins, etc., etc.)

 

[BeanAnimal]

I should ask you that question are you here to provide an opinion? Or a useful opinion based off empirical experience with the product? To be perfectly candid, I am not interested in your opinion sans any empirical experience.

As far as "the don't add stuff" comment goes: just how many posts exist within this entire forum that addresses some type or types of additives (no matter the application)? Tens of thousands? More? (e.g., chemicals. medicines, amino acids, probiotics, foods, vitamins, etc., etc.)

That is another combative deflection -- so I suppose I am wasting my time. You came here and asked for help but have dismissed and insulted those attempting to help you.

Rhetorically -- If you’re the smartest aquarist in the room, then perhaps we should all be asking you for help. But that begs the question why the smartest aquarist in the room didn't understand that “don’t add stuff” in the context of this thread and cycle, meant exactly that. "Don't add anything else but a nitrogen source and time".

Candidly (your words), I came here to help answer a question, as did others you’ve dismissed. If your goal is scoring points with backhanded remarks, Reddit may be a better fit.

As for “empirical evidence”... what exactly are you after? The assays that show bottled products generally don't contain nitrifiers and instead consist of various heterotrophs, some being rather scary strains? The well documented fact that heterotrophs outcompete nitrifiers and how that can stall cycles -- something that you appear to have already read, given your comments below?

At this point, you’re just shifting the goalposts to argue. You either want help and to understand the state of your cycle and why, or you want to argue.

I've read/researched where what's really happening with old school tank cycling is that the nitrification process is as much being accomplished through competing heterotrophs. By competing, I mean that the less desirable bacteria are overshadowing the more beneficial bacteria.

You are conflating several different things here. But generally the bacterial profile required to get a tank started vs the balanced state of bacteria in an established system. Heterotrophs are widely known to be a large part of the nitrogen cycle in an established system. However, the nitrifiers are not wholly outcompeted in a healthy system -- thus "balanced".

The problem with a new system is that the voracious appetites of those heterotrophs stunt the progression of the nitrifiers and the system ends up in a stalled state. The purpose of the ghost feeding, dead shrimp or other organic source is nutrients that will not exclusively feed the heterotroph bloom, allowing the nitrifiers to take hold. The advice to not add more bottled bacteria or more direct ammonia is because that is the mechanism that is feeding the heterotrophic bloom came from to begin with.

Now given a choice: wouldn't you rather have the best of both worlds? That is, bacteria that are both nitrifying and super-beneficial from a long term probiotic standpoint? If so, then a person (such as my trying the product) would want to give a product a try such as Dr. Tim's, no?

The question assumes two things: first, that what’s in the bottle is actually beneficial, and second, that it can outcompete the existing microbial community to maintain that benefit. Neither of those assumptions is guaranteed.

That said, the distinction matters. Are we talking about an established system, or a new system still trying to build the foundation of a nitrogen cycle? The dynamics are not the same. That brings us back to your question regarding your cycle and the questions that I asked. Answer them or don't -- I don't care one way or the other. If you want help from other experienced reef keepers, then graciously accept it. If you want to be dismissive and combative, you apparently don't need help, so have fun.

 

[Bear22]

You came here and asked for help but have dismissed and insulted those attempting to help you. So I will ask you again, are you looking for help or is your intent simply to argue with people? If you want help, answer the questions that I asked.

Rhetorically -- If you’re the smartest aquarist in the room, then perhaps we should all be asking you for help. But that begs the question why the smartest aquarist in the room didn't understand that “don’t add stuff” in the context of this thread and cycle, meant exactly that. "Don't add anything else but a nitrogen source and time".

Candidly (your words), I came here to help answer a question, as did others you’ve dismissed. If your goal is scoring points with backhanded remarks, Reddit may be a better fit.

As for “empirical evidence”... what exactly are you after? The assays that show bottled products contain mostly heterotrophs? The well documented fact that heterotrophs outcompete nitrifiers and how that can stall cycles -- something that you appear to grasp already given your comments below.

At this point, you’re just shifting the goalposts to argue. You either want help and to understand the state of your cycle and why, or you want to argue.


You are conflating several different things here. But generally the bacterial profile required to get a tank started vs the balanced state of bacteria in an established system. Heterotrophs are widely known to be a large part of the nitrogen cycle in an established system. However, the nitrifiers are not wholly outcompeted in a healthy system -- thus "balanced".

The problem with a new system is that the voracious appetites of those heterotrophs stunt the progression of the nitrifiers and the system ends up in a stalled state. The purpose of the ghost feeding, dead shrimp or other organic source is nutrients that will not exclusively feed the heterotroph bloom, allowing the nitrifiers to take hold. The advice to not add more bottled bacteria or more direct ammonia is because that is the mechanism that is feeding the heterotrophic bloom came from to begin with.


The question assumes two things: first, that what’s in the bottle is actually beneficial, and second, that it can outcompete the existing microbial community to maintain that benefit. Neither of those assumptions is guaranteed.

That said, the distinction matters. Are we talking about an established system, or a new system still trying to build the foundation of a nitrogen cycle? The dynamics are not the same. That brings us back to YOUR question and YOUR cycle and the questions that I asked. Answer them or don't... I don't care one way or the other. If you want help from other experienced reef keepers, then graciously accept it. If you want to be dismissive and combative, you apparently don't need help, so have fun.

Dr. Tim the phD SME and the folks at the MESS BioCenter University of Vienna-who are purportedly the world experts on nitrifying bacteria developed this product.

So, as far "assuming" what's in the bottle I am going to assume/rely on the world's expert's expertise over some hobbyist who has no experience with the product, thank you very much. I might be "dismissive and combative" as you claim, but I am not doing it from glass houses. Are you?

To Fish Fan and Nanosteam: thanks for your insights and help with the product in question.