Cycle won't complete with the Dr. Tim's Method

[klvnnunez]

I am almost on week 4 of the cycle with Dr Tim One and Only and Ammonia Chloride. My experience with the cycle has been subpar. The first time dosing one and only (almost 4 weeks ago), following Tim's instructions, the cycle failed after day 8 due to extremely high ammonia. I had to perform an emergency 50% water change to bring it down to about 4ppm. I kept dosing ammonia according to his instructions to only notice the ammonia was going down. So basically had to start the process again from scratch. Then I went to purchase a second bottle of O&O and tossed it in the tank, letting precipitate for an hour before turning the return pump on. A few days later, the parameters were as follow:

Salifert:
Ammonia 2
Nitrite .25
Nitrate 10
pH 8
Temp 82 F
Salinity 1.026
Tank 40g to include sump volume
1" crushed coral sand bed
20 lb marco rocks

The ammonia at one point hit 0 with some nitrite still in the water (I'm not sure if letting the ammonia go down to 0, harmed the process). I added another 4ml of ammonia chloride from Tim to bring it back up to 2ppm. It stayed at 2ppm for a few more days, mind you, this is testing with both API and Salifert. About a week ago, I took a water sample to the LFS and ammonia at that point was 0ppm, nitrite .25 and nitrate 25. I was baffled at the results as I was constantly testing with salifert and I was getting different readings which made me question the reliability of salifert.

Last week on Friday, I added a dose of ammonia to bring it to 1ppm to see if the tank would handle it I was traveling for 4 days. My hopes were that when returning ammonia and nitrite would be 0. It was not the case, ammonia and nitrite stayed the same. I went and bought Mricrobe Lift Nite Out 2 and started dosing 15ml as of 3 days ago to try and fortify the nitrifying bacteria.

Today, going almost on week 4 and adding more nitrifying bacteria to the tank, it still not able to process it. I'm still battling ammonia and the tank seems to no be cycling.

Today's parameters are as follow:

Salifert:
Ammonia .15
Nitrite .1
Nitrate 25
pH 8
Temp 82 F
Salinity 1.026

For the past 2 weeks, these parameters has been stalled, meaning they haven't move at all. I'm in desperate need of help as I would like to completely cycle the tank. Any thoughts? Your help or input will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Llyod276]

I've never heard of a cycle fail due to high ammonia, just not enough bacteria or ammonia sources. Give it time. There was a thread just recently done on here that was similar...
Yeah here it is look up on this forum: cycle won't start

 

[klvnnunez]

I've never heard of a cycle fail due to high ammonia, just not enough bacteria or ammonia sources. Give it time. There was a thread just recently done on here that was similar...
Yeah here it is look up on this forum: cycle won't start

Yes, I was in that thread but was hijacking it, so I created my own hehe

 

[Llyod276]

Ah, double dipping. Alright, you got 10$(?) got to lfs and by a live rock, you have what a 20g something just one rock, and then ghost feed just a small amount, thenif you're 1ppm or less get a small fish. Do waterchanges, and monitor.

 

[Idech]

There have been posts about this. If you follow the instructions on the bottle you end up with wayyyyyyy too much ammonia. I think you have to use 25% or 50% only.

Get your ammonia to 2 ppm by doing a WC and continue cycling. When you do it this way, it works. One cycle took me 23 days and the other, 26 if I remember correctly.

 

[Fish Fan]

This was my reply to the OP in another thread, and I’m going to repost here because I think it’s relevant to the OP’s issue:

I think your cycle is likely just fine. How are you measuring your ammonia, are you using the API brand test kit? If so, that kit is well known to quite often report a very low level of ammonia, where there's really almost none.

You are recording nitrates, so your cycle is working. If you're using API brand test kits, your cycle is likely over.

Bring a sample of your water to a trusted Local Fish Store (LFS) that does not use API brand test kits, and have them test your water to confirm.

Cycling all dry hardscape can take weeks to a month for sure, but it should never take many months for the initial nitrogen cycle to complete.

I hope that helps!

 

[klvnnunez]

I will wait it out over the weekend and see what results I get by Monday. Seeding the tank with a piece of lr for sure will work, I junt don't want to introduce pests that way, especially aiptasia, so I will stay clear from that route.

If nothing changes by Monday, then Fritz will be it with a bit of fish food as some of you recoomended.

 

[Fish Fan]

If nothing changes please consider that your ammonia test kit is *stuck* on 0.15 ppm.

All other indications are positive:
Ammonia was high, now is very low (<0.25ppm isn’t a real concern, and is a benefit to corals)
Nitrite went up, and is now near zero
Nitrates are steadily rising.

Look for trends in your test kits, not hard numbers; hobby grade test kits are just not that accurate :)

 

[Fish Fan]

A very similar situation, though this poster is seeing “endless” nitrites. But likely just testing error, given the time frame and efforts to cycle tank:

Nitrites stalled during cycle

Hi! So my new 63 gallon reef has been set up for a month as of yesterday. Used the fishless cycling method with dry sand and dry rock and all new media. Used Dr Tim’s bacteria and ammonia drops per instructions. I soon realized that I overdosed the tank with ammonia by mistake the first week as...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[klvnnunez]

If nothing changes please consider that your ammonia test kit is *stuck* on 0.15 ppm.

All other indications are positive:
Ammonia was high, now is very low (<0.25ppm isn’t a real concern, and is a benefit to corals)
Nitrite went up, and is now near zero
Nitrates are steadily rising.

Look for trends in your test kits, not hard numbers; hobby grade test kits are just not that accurate :)

I understand about the trends, but fishless cycle supposed to hit 0 in ammonia and nitrite which is what i'm looking for. Not to mention, it is a pain in the a** to read salifert's color chart. I will take a sample to the lfs on Monday to test. Its a bit pricey since they are using API Reef Master but it'll have to do. I will post the results here on Monday for you guys to chime in for some direction. Hopefully, ammonia and nitrite hit 0 by then.

 

[Fish Fan]

Friend, I wouldn’t pay for the API tests, it’s not any more accurate than your Salifert kits.

Nitrite is not toxic in marine aquaria, so don’t even worry about it. Please see this post from member Randy Holmes-Farley for more information:
Post in thread 'Nitrite Toxicity'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/nitrite-toxicity.402708/post-4805029

Please consider that your test kits may be reporting ammonia and/or nitrite when they are both at or very near zero.

Your tank is very likely cycled :-)

I hope that helps.

 

[klvnnunez]

Friend, I wouldn’t pay for the API tests, it’s not any more accurate than your Salifert kits.

Nitrite is not toxic in marine aquaria, so don’t even worry about it. Please see this post from member Randy Holmes-Farley for more information:
Post in thread 'Nitrite Toxicity'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/nitrite-toxicity.402708/post-4805029

Please consider that your test kits may be reporting ammonia and/or nitrite when they are both at or very near zero.

Your tank is very likely cycled :)

I hope that helps.

Nice read. About the test kits accuracy, I can definitely confirmed. A few weeks ago when I was testing with salifert, ammonia was at .25ppm and when the lfs tested it with the API reeef master, it was 0. I beg the question, if ammonia indeed is 0 even though salifert is reading .15ppm, why when I add ammonia, lets say 1ppm, the tank is not able to process it within a 24 hours period. What am I missing?

Do you suggest adding some ammonia tomorrow, say raising it to 1ppm and see if it gets processed by Sunday, or should I not?

 

[Fish Fan]

Nice read. About the test kits accuracy, I can definitely confirmed. A few weeks ago when I was testing with salifert, ammonia was at .25ppm and when the lfs tested it with the API reeef master, it was 0. I beg the question, if ammonia indeed is 0 even though salifert is reading .15ppm, why when I add ammonia, lets say 1ppm, the tank is not able to process it within a 24 hours period. What am I missing?

Do you suggest adding some ammonia tomorrow, say raising it to 1ppm and see if it gets processed by Sunday, or should I not?

Yes, your tank should be able to process about 2.0 ppm ammonia to basically zero in 24 hours. You don’t think your tank is able to do that? It would not be a bad idea in my opinion to raise the ammonia to 1.0 ppm or a bit more, and if in 24 hours you read your ammonia at 0.15 ppm, I would interpret that as a zero ammonia.

If you’re having trouble reading the Salifert kit, post a picture, maybe someone here can help :)

 

[MnFish1]

I am almost on week 4 of the cycle with Dr Tim One and Only and Ammonia Chloride. My experience with the cycle has been subpar. The first time dosing one and only (almost 4 weeks ago), following Tim's instructions, the cycle failed after day 8 due to extremely high ammonia. I had to perform an emergency 50% water change to bring it down to about 4ppm. I kept dosing ammonia according to his instructions to only notice the ammonia was going down. So basically had to start the process again from scratch. Then I went to purchase a second bottle of O&O and tossed it in the tank, letting precipitate for an hour before turning the return pump on. A few days later, the parameters were as follow:

Salifert:
Ammonia 2
Nitrite .25
Nitrate 10
pH 8
Temp 82 F
Salinity 1.026
Tank 40g to include sump volume
1" crushed coral sand bed
20 lb marco rocks

The ammonia at one point hit 0 with some nitrite still in the water (I'm not sure if letting the ammonia go down to 0, harmed the process). I added another 4ml of ammonia chloride from Tim to bring it back up to 2ppm. It stayed at 2ppm for a few more days, mind you, this is testing with both API and Salifert. About a week ago, I took a water sample to the LFS and ammonia at that point was 0ppm, nitrite .25 and nitrate 25. I was baffled at the results as I was constantly testing with salifert and I was getting different readings which made me question the reliability of salifert.

Last week on Friday, I added a dose of ammonia to bring it to 1ppm to see if the tank would handle it I was traveling for 4 days. My hopes were that when returning ammonia and nitrite would be 0. It was not the case, ammonia and nitrite stayed the same. I went and bought Mricrobe Lift Nite Out 2 and started dosing 15ml as of 3 days ago to try and fortify the nitrifying bacteria.

Today, going almost on week 4 and adding more nitrifying bacteria to the tank, it still not able to process it. I'm still battling ammonia and the tank seems to no be cycling.

Today's parameters are as follow:

Salifert:
Ammonia .15
Nitrite .1
Nitrate 25
pH 8
Temp 82 F
Salinity 1.026

For the past 2 weeks, these parameters has been stalled, meaning they haven't move at all. I'm in desperate need of help as I would like to completely cycle the tank. Any thoughts? Your help or input will be greatly appreciated.

The drop method from the dr. Tims bottle MAY give ammonia levels far higher than expected the first time you used it. I'm guessing this might be a potential cause.

 

[klvnnunez]

I will test tomorrow and if it's still .15ppm, I will add 2ml of ammonia chloride to raise it to 1ppm. I will test 30 minutes later to let it cook and will post the picture here. On Sunday, I will test again (24 hours later) and see if ammonia is either 0 or .15. If .15ppm, I'll assume ammonia is 0. Either way, I will post all the results here.

Thank you so much for all o the inputs, guys. This is awesome!!!

 

[klvnnunez]

Here's today's test (Saturday, March 8th)

Salifert
ammonia .15ppm for what I can tell (see picture and help determine the value)

Red Sea
Nitrite .2ppm
Nitrate (in between 5 and 10ppm for what I can tell)

Course of action:
I have added a full 8 oz bottle of Fritz Zyme 9, removed the carbon, foam pad, skimmer off, and added a pinch of crushed fish food.

As promised, below are the pictures of the test for help with the inacuracy I'm having with the salifert ammonia.

What should the expected outcome be in the next few days?

 

[MnFish1]

I would read your ammonia as zero. Is there a reason you removed all of your filter, etc - I would put it all back (except I believe fritz suggests to leave the skimmer off for a short time). Based on these numbers (nitrite does not really matter) - what are your plans for adding livestock. If you read the instructions on Fritz, you can add livestock on the first day (not a lot of livestock). I would definitely stop adding ammonia.

 

[Fish Fan]

I would read your ammonia as zero. Is there a reason you removed all of your filter, etc - I would put it all back (except I believe fritz suggests to leave the skimmer off for a short time). Based on these numbers (nitrite does not really matter) - what are your plans for adding livestock. If you read the instructions on Fritz, you can add livestock on the first day (not a lot of livestock). I would definitely stop adding ammonia.

I believe they also suggest removing all mechanical media too. If Fritz doesn't recommended that, Dr. Tim's does; one of them does for sure. The idea is you don't want the bacteria that you added to wind up on your mechanical and other media, only to be removed, you want to be sure they settle and populate on the rocks, sand, etc. is what I've read here.

 

[Fish Fan]

Here's today's test (Saturday, March 8th)

Salifert
ammonia .15ppm for what I can tell (see picture and help determine the value)

Red Sea
Nitrite .2ppm
Nitrate (in between 5 and 10ppm for what I can tell)

Course of action:
I have added a full 8 oz bottle of Fritz Zyme 9, removed the carbon, foam pad, skimmer off, and added a pinch of crushed fish food.

As promised, below are the pictures of the test for help with the inacuracy I'm having with the salifert ammonia.

What should the expected outcome be in the next few days?

OK, please note: The color your comparing your ammonia test to, if you notice, actually reads "< 0.15 ppm". That's "less than" 0.15 ppm. So you're not necessarily at 0.15 ppm, you're "less than" 0.15 ppm, which may effectively be zero :)

I really think you're fine to proceed to slowly add some livestock, but if you wanted to confirm, try adding enough ammonium chloride to bring your tank to 1.0-2.0 ppm ammonia, and see where it is in 24 hours. If it's back to that "< 0.15 ppm" I think that's effectively zero.

Let us know what happens!

 

[MnFish1]

I believe they also suggest removing all mechanical media too. If Fritz doesn't recommended that, Dr. Tim's does; one of them does for sure. The idea is you don't want the bacteria that you added to wind up on your mechanical and other media, only to be removed, you want to be sure they settle and populate on the rocks, sand, etc. is what I've read here.

Yes - my opinion was based on the fact that that this has been going on for 4 weeks.