Cycle won't complete with the Dr. Tim's Method

[MnFish1]

OK, please note: The color your comparing your ammonia test to, if you notice, actually reads "< 0.15 ppm". That's "less than" 0.15 ppm. So you're not necessarily at 0.15 ppm, you're "less than" 0.15 ppm, which may effectively be zero :)

I really think you're fine to proceed to slowly add some livestock, but if you wanted to confirm, try adding enough ammonium chloride to bring your tank to 1.0-2.0 ppm ammonia, and see where it is in 24 hours. If it's back to that "< 0.15 ppm" I think that's effectively zero.

Let us know what happens!

Thanks for saying this - I don't know how salifert instructs one to read the ammonia test - but with API - for example - even if its a little 'greenish yellow' - it is still read as '0' ammonia. And even 0.15 does not translate into a toxic level of free ammonia.

 

[Fish Fan]

Yes - my opinion was based on the fact that that this has been going on for 4 weeks.

Yes, I cound't agree more, I believe the OP is well cycled, I was just reiterating what I've read about fish-less cycling and mechanical media. Thank you for your help here!

 

[Fish Fan]

Thanks for saying this - I don't know how salifert instructs one to read the ammonia test - but with API - for example - even if its a little 'greenish yellow' - it is still read as '0' ammonia.

I haven't used a Salifert ammonia kit in so long I forgot how they worked, but seeing the OP's picture, you can clearly see it's labeled "< 0.15 ppm", so I think that's as good as zero. Maybe API should label their lowest indicator as "less than" too, might minimize a lot of confusion for a lot of people :)

Thanks again, I appreciate your help here!

 

[klvnnunez]

I believe they also suggest removing all mechanical media too. If Fritz doesn't recommended that, Dr. Tim's does; one of them does for sure. The idea is you don't want the bacteria that you added to wind up on your mechanical and other media, only to be removed, you want to be sure they settle and populate on the rocks, sand, etc. is what I've read here.

That is correct. Dr. Tim suggest removing all filter media so the bacteria have a change to attache to the rocks and sand, which is why i removed it. Fritz might not requires it, but removing it won't hurt anything.

 

[klvnnunez]

OK, please note: The color your comparing your ammonia test to, if you notice, actually reads "< 0.15 ppm". That's "less than" 0.15 ppm. So you're not necessarily at 0.15 ppm, you're "less than" 0.15 ppm, which may effectively be zero :)

I really think you're fine to proceed to slowly add some livestock, but if you wanted to confirm, try adding enough ammonium chloride to bring your tank to 1.0-2.0 ppm ammonia, and see where it is in 24 hours. If it's back to that "< 0.15 ppm" I think that's effectively zero.

Let us know what happens!

I see, I definitely missed that small detail. I will let the bacteria from fritz do its thing for the next 24 hours. Tomorrow, I will raise the ammonia to 1ppm and test Monday in the hopes of getting a reading under .15ppm

I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[brandon429]

Cycle umpire audit incoming unrequested lol

Well done. I’m reading pretty much a reassurance from the group regarding this cycle vs hesitancy, and let’s verify further. I rate the confidence level of the assessments at 90% dang strong. Well done. If this was 2018, the level of fear communicated to him would have him dosing prime, have the threads handy to read, and buying every manner of bottle bac to complete this cycle.

Not today, more than one says proceed, agreed.

At no time does a cycle starve after meeting the ten day wait + good clear Red Sea ammonia testing already showed initial ammonia drop.

Anything after that is the test variance on those kits, that comes from real reefing. This cycle is done. What controls your fish health isn’t adding slow, or taking an arbitrary while, it’s applying a specific fish disease plan you’ve researched and selected. That’s what controls stock rate, not a concern over the cycle. This cycle is done. Cease testing for ammonia and nitrite that way you can focus on what counts.

Additional clue:

At no time in a four week, fed bottle bac cycle from any name brand will there be a fail for basic ammonia control bacteria (who cares what clade, or if they alternate, don’t care)

Starve= would fail to control an added test bioload after any wait period: cycles do not starve. Test this at 24-36 mos fallow on seneye, someone, please (article gold)

The tank can’t not be cycled. Nice thread. Nice teamwork / accurate per my elbowed in opinion.

All cycling threads have a new/old cycling tussle in effect. For this thread the 2018 trigger would be ANY detected ammonia on that kit = impending crash = you better start buying supports

I have those threads handy. In fact I’ll be linking this thread back to them, so they can see we advise less panic nowadays and it didn’t come from me, multiple advisors here said proceed.

But today, new cycling science is reigning and nobody studying there fears test kit drift + low sustained levels of ammonia most reefs-in-action show, these reefs eagerly consume + benefit from a little extra with deeper coloration and better growth. Randy’s article on it is excellent new cycling science

New cycling science was more prominent here. Grade A imo. Nothing to debate here imo.

 

[brandon429]

And for the real umpire test

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/sustained-ammonia-spikes-are-misreads.802470/
There’s the Red Sea false panic thread. Not one, not one, not any of those tanks even had a symptom much less a bad before pic with anthias happily swimming around cleaner shrimp and probably basket stars if we look hard enough.

But they all sure did have: a positive test reading for ammonia in some way. That thread is the lonely desert of old cycling science in action. Complete fear and hesitation was what we were curbing

______________________________________________________________

So my initial take above was the nice one


But this one here pushes a little/maybe too much. It’s not to get anyones goose it’s to test how much we believe ourselves as cycle umpires

Because of what you advised here, by default that means you agree with the above thread. = a leap foisted upon thee. Agreed or no? Check it out. From page one, which example do you think was a real fail/impending crash (hint: every reef there met the above two rules that solved this cycle)


It means that with every page you scan above, hoping to find that one proof of the delayed fail cycle (from a fed, years-running, stocked reef tank with no symptoms other than a non-zero ammonia reading) it means you can’t find that example. You’re seeing in every case someone’s reading was a bit high


Someone’s else’s reading a bit low, but not zero, it’s a panic control thread. You agreed prior that Randy said some available ammonia is good, not bad, and now the + test kit lines up with the healthy reef system pics everyone posts alongside the failed Red Sea ammonia test.

Lastly, final leap promise:

It means you also agree that every failed cycle post on the internet is also actually symptomless and some greenish tint on an api reading has caused us to view cycling the wrong way for thirty years. You’re also apologizing for all prior cycle disagreements from prior threads, for which I duly forgive and extend to you, a digital handshake. You’ll never be caught doubting a fed + four week cycle, no matter how many alerts are part of the thread title. Excellent team

 

[mariano]

I will wait it out over the weekend and see what results I get by Monday. Seeding the tank with a piece of lr for sure will work, I junt don't want to introduce pests that way, especially aiptasia, so I will stay clear from that route.

If nothing changes by Monday, then Fritz will be it with a bit of fish food as some of you recoomended.

I have bad news for you if you think you will never introduce pests and aiptasia by avoiding live rock.

 

[BeanAnimal]

But, (again) there isn’t even a real debate here @brandon429 -- just you repeatedly arguing against a position nobody is actually taking.

This entire mess (threads full of it) are a mix of straw arguments, and self-referential loops that force conclusions that exist only to push your own (flawed) narratives.

No one is saying to panic over a single nonzero ammonia reading, but you insist on painting the discussion that way so you can act as the enlightened voice of reason. The problem? Your claim that all sustained ammonia readings are misreads is flat-out wrong. There is no argument to be had because your premise is flawed from the start.

You claim that no cycled tank can ever have sustained ammonia, then dismiss any examples that prove otherwise as “test variance.” That’s a circular argument, Brandon. Your claim can never be tested because you’ve preemptively discredited any evidence against it. That’s not science.

The constant use of dismissive labels, insinuations that others are ignorant or fearful, and repeated claims of “old cycling science” have pushed this beyond discussion and into outright toxicity. At this point, it’s not about reefkeeping—it’s about self-promotion of your flawed ideas and contradictory logic. And frankly, it has become exhausting.

At this point, the biggest issue isn’t even your bad logic—it’s your inability to discuss anything without using terminology and wording that begs to be responded to and then playing victim when people respond appropriately.

 

[MnFish1]

And for the real umpire test

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/sustained-ammonia-spikes-are-misreads.802470/
There’s the Red Sea false panic thread. Not one, not one, not any of those tanks even had a symptom much less a bad before pic with anthias happily swimming around cleaner shrimp and probably basket stars if we look hard enough.

But they all sure did have: a positive test reading for ammonia in some way. That thread is the lonely desert of old cycling science in action. Complete fear and hesitation was what we were curbing

______________________________________________________________

So my initial take above was the nice one


But this one here pushes a little/maybe too much. It’s not to get anyones goose it’s to test how much we believe ourselves as cycle umpires

Because of what you advised here, by default that means you agree with the above thread. = a leap foisted upon thee. Agreed or no? Check it out. From page one, which example do you think was a real fail/impending crash (hint: every reef there met the above two rules that solved this cycle)


It means that with every page you scan above, hoping to find that one proof of the delayed fail cycle (from a fed, years-running, stocked reef tank with no symptoms other than a non-zero ammonia reading) it means you can’t find that example. You’re seeing in every case someone’s reading was a bit high


Someone’s else’s reading a bit low, but not zero, it’s a panic control thread. You agreed prior that Randy said some available ammonia is good, not bad, and now the + test kit lines up with the healthy reef system pics everyone posts alongside the failed Red Sea ammonia test.

Lastly, final leap promise:

It means you also agree that every failed cycle post on the internet is also actually symptomless and some greenish tint on an api reading has caused us to view cycling the wrong way for thirty years. You’re also apologizing for all prior cycle disagreements from prior threads, for which I duly forgive and extend to you, a digital handshake. You’ll never be caught doubting a fed + four week cycle, no matter how many alerts are part of the thread title. Excellent team

I am not sure to whom this is directed - I'm assuming me. In that case - I'll repeat what I've said 1000 times - have no disagreement with skip cycles, I've never used an ammonia test while cycling a tank (the only time I owned one was when I was doing the experiments a couple years ago). The only disagreement is how things are sometimes presented - using language that does not make total sense to me, and the idea that just because a bunch of collected threads agree with each other doesn't mean there aren't others that have not 'worked'.

 

[Llyod276]

Wonder if OP ever bought that one piece of live rock from an lfs???

 

[BeanAnimal]

using language that does not make total sense to me, and the idea that just because a bunch of collected threads agree with each other

Brandon certainly has the ability to communicate clearly and consisely using common language. Unfortunately, he attempts to falsely elevate his authority by using what he thinks is esoteric and eccentric language.

The vast majority of threads he cites don’t come close to supporting what he claims, they are just more of the same circular arguments and insults and his refusal to be wrong.

 

[Llyod276]

using language that does not make total sense to me, and the idea that just because a bunch of collected threads agree with each other

Brandon certainly has the ability to communicate clearly and consisely using common language. Unfortunately, he attempts to falsely elevate his authority by using what he thinks is esoteric and eccentric language.

The vast majority of threads he cites don’t come close to supporting what he claims, they are just more of the same circular arguments and back handed screeds and comments about his peers.

Let's go Brandon! Let's go!

 

[BeanAnimal]

Wonder if OP ever bought that one piece of live rock from an lfs???

It certainly would not harm anything.

The nitrogen cycle will eventually stabilize one way or the other. Given the numerous variables, that balance can take a bit longer in some cases.

 

[fish_collector]

The internet has certainly made something as simple as starting up a new tank a daunting and scary task. I'm sure glad the new science is here to guide us through it all.

Seriously, I wish LR was still around, the good stuff from Fiji. Those that have never seen it or used it have no idea how easy things used to be. I guess the australian stuff is good but it's expensive. Maybe someday it'll return.

 

[klvnnunez]

Wonder if OP ever bought that one piece of live rock from an lfs???

thanks for checking in, but I did not.

 

[klvnnunez]

24 hours has gone by since adding the full bottle of Fritz zyme 9 and a pinch of fish food to the tank. Today the water looks a bit cloudy, which is normal. I have also turned on the skimmer and lowered the temp from 82 to 81 F. I will keep lowering the temp 1 degree per day until reaching 79 degrees.

After adding 4ml of ammonia chloride, I can clearly see the ammonia level in the tank has gone up from less than .15 or 0ppm to what I believe is somewhere between .25 and .5ppm. If the increase of ammonia, I will test if the tank can handle it by tomorrow (Monday).

Today's parameters are as follow:

Salifer:
Ammonia (somewhere between .25 and .5)

Red Sea:
Nitrite .2
Nitrate (somewhere betwwen 2 and 5)

Let me know of any thoughts.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The internet has certainly made something as simple as starting up a new tank a daunting and scary task. I'm sure glad the new science is here to guide us through it all.

The irony is that If according to the person making a confusing mess of what is very simple science, they they are making it simple.

Seriously, I wish LR was still around, the good stuff from Fiji. Those that have never seen it or used it have no idea how easy things used to be. I guess the australian stuff is good but it's expensive. Maybe someday it'll return.

Easy is relative in many ways. LR certainly comes with benefits, but the "cycle" really has little to do with it. It is what comes after that is what helps. Dry rock takes time to mature with the various forms of fauna that come established on live rock.

 

[BeanAnimal]

24 hours has gone by since adding the full bottle of Fritz zyme 9 and a pinch of fish food to the tank. Today the water looks a bit cloudy, which is normal. I have also turned on the skimmer and lowered the temp from 82 to 81 F. I will keep lowering the temp 1 degree per day until reaching 79 degrees.

After adding 4ml of ammonia chloride, I can clearly see the ammonia level in the tank has gone up from less than .15 or 0ppm to what I believe is somewhere between .25 and .5ppm. If the increase of ammonia, I will test if the tank can handle it by tomorrow (Monday).

Today's parameters are as follow:

Salifer:
Ammonia (somewhere between .25 and .5)

Red Sea:
Nitrite .2
Nitrate (somewhere betwwen 2 and 5)

Let me know of any thoughts.

There is no need to keep dumping ammonia or food into the tank if you already had elevated readings. What you are waiting on is the nitrifiers to catch up. Adding more food does not change this.

The process is simple. The idea is start with no ammonia. Increase it to a readable level and then watch for it to fall. Once it begins falling, you have nitrifiers :)

 

[KrisReef]

I will wait it out over the weekend and see what results I get by Monday.

If nothing changes by Monday, then Fritz will be it

I woke up this morning and the clocks had changed, therefore you do not need to add anymore Fritz or the Dr. Tim’s

Your tank is cycled, please do a large volume water change, 75% or more and you are good to go.

I also would recommend throwing away the API ammonia test kit to cast out the evil that had been haunting your tank.

When ammonia is eaten by microbes it ends up as nitrate. Accumulating nitrate is the indicator that your microbes are established and the tank is cycled.

(What degree made Tim a doctor?)