Fed up with Apex

[chefjpaul]

https://www.aquariumcomputer.com/usa/store/

 

[Kyl]

I appreciate this invite and will be hitting a few of you up. Wasn’t expecting this post to go bananas. But it makes me feel like there are a few more out there that have had the same issues with the customer service being the key.

I think it's more of a timing occurrence than anything. We have a multi-year long product release that finally hit, and the issues surrounding its release, coupled with other issues that have cropped up over the last number of years in the "2016" timeline are all culminating in events coming to a head. I've noted a few of my replies around R2R that my "sudden" change has been building for a while, but this latest period is what moved me to act.

The result is I started to read more threads, noticed ones I would have previously ignored like the extensive swap thread Ditto made, sought insight into user experiences of others through PM, started firing off support questions to GHL, and it's just reaffirming the feeling I was having wasn't just my perception of things, there are other users out there that have felt the same way.

 

[smartwater101]

Neptune is a sponsor. Just like Ecotech, WWC, etc. They clearly state it when they do their shows. Just like they wonder why a certain feature, heartbeat, isn't enabled by default or ask them to maybe implement a task/reminder to fire after the initial setup + one week...

You are reading into it if you are not able to separate the two.

Having some criticisms about the features doesn't change the point hes making... in any way.

It's a little silly to pretend that just because they disclaim the sponsorship, it suddenly means the sponsor doesn't have some leverage.

I prefer BRS over all other vendors, but they're a buisness first and foremost.

 

[chefjpaul]

Having some criticisms about the features doesn't change the point hes making... in any way.

It's a little silly to pretend that just because they disclaim the sponsorship, it suddenly means the sponsor doesn't have some leverage.

I prefer BRS over all other vendors, but they're a buisness first and foremost.

100% they do.

I support BRS more than any other vendor here, but at end of day they build their business with the relationships either through business or personal. I would and do as well.

Although this side tracks the thread, as stated already that GHL sells direct along with the personal customer support, virtually rendering any reference to any vendor or LFS pointless.

 

[Entz]

I think these discussion are good to have. If we want vendors to improve there needs to be viable alternatives people will switch too, that threat needs to be real and real world discussions without bias need to be had so they can review. Neptune is not too big to fail.

The biggest issue with GHL is truly the distribution. It was almost exactly this time last year when I was looking at controllers. I had the option of Neptune, the heavyweight, with lots of integration and sold at the vendors I know and trust. GHL was, and I think still is, only available from one vendor in Canada. I didn't know them, their presence on influence channels is small (i.e. BRS 160 series all apex) and to be frank a year ago the UI was pretty poor and I knew if I had a problem is was going to involve mailing things (which is expensive). So the decision was made to go with APEX, something I am kinda regretting now as everyone and their dog is using their own apps and outside of 0-10 is a cluster****. Not to mention things like module creep (I have a module to control 2 tiny LEDs lol) and salinity probes being useless for me (only seem to stay calibrated for a short period of time). GHL is now pretty much perfect (outside of unit conversion lol)

Full disclosure, my Apex 2016 came with a non-functional temperature probe. Took 2 days of back and forth including pictures (looks like the plug was wired wrong) and they fast shipped a replacement. So for me support was awesome, not sure if that has changed or maybe its a person thing.

I totally understand though, if I had your issues I would switch. In fact I may be this fall. The whole idea of a controller is to make our lives better not become our own personal hell.

Edit: And for the record, MAP needs to die. Maxmimum is fine, but never allowing sales or discounts is dumb. If a place wants to only make 10$ on a sale of an apex and sell tonnes why is that a bad thing?

 

[ShawnSaucier]

I definitely would caution someone going 'all in' to take a closer look at reviews. You would think since the product costs so much and the add-ons can be quite expensive...that they would try harder. For example I would take a Tunze ATO over their ATK any day. The fact that ATK has 3 stars on BRS and the Tunze 3155 has over 4.5 at the same price point speaks volumes.

Besides the esthetic reason of going all in one, it is also the controllability from one page that I like. If I have 5 minutes to pop up a page or app and see all of my tank info, this makes it a bit easier than 5 different apps.

 

[laverda]

I think these discussion are good to have. If we want vendors to improve there needs to be viable alternatives people will switch too, that threat needs to be real and real world discussions without bias need to be had so they can review. Neptune is not too big to fail.

The biggest issue with GHL is truly the distribution. It was almost exactly this time last year when I was looking at controllers. I had the option of Neptune, the heavyweight, with lots of integration and sold at the vendors I know and trust. GHL was, and I think still is, only available from one vendor in Canada. I didn't know them, their presence on influence channels is small (i.e. BRS 160 series all apex) and to be frank a year ago the UI was pretty poor and I knew if I had a problem is was going to involve mailing things (which is expensive). So the decision was made to go with APEX, something I am kinda regretting now as everyone and their dog is using their own apps and outside of 0-10 is a cluster****. Not to mention things like module creep (I have a module to control 2 tiny LEDs lol) and salinity probes being useless for me (only seem to stay calibrated for a short period of time). GHL is now pretty much perfect (outside of unit conversion lol)

Full disclosure, my Apex 2016 came with a non-functional temperature probe. Took 2 days of back and forth including pictures (looks like the plug was wired wrong) and they fast shipped a replacement. So for me support was awesome, not sure if that has changed or maybe its a person thing.

I totally understand though, if I had your issues I would switch. In fact I may be this fall. The whole idea of a controller is to make our lives better not become our own personal hell.

Edit: And for the record, MAP needs to die. Maxmimum is fine, but never allowing sales or discounts is dumb. If a place wants to only make 10$ on a sale of an apex and sell tonnes why is that a bad thing?

MAP does not say a store can not sell for less. It says a vender can not advertise for less. Their are vendors that do sell for less than others, but they do not advertise it. If your a store this can be a big plus to carry one product line over another. For manufacturers it helps keep the image of their products perceived differently than a competers. It can also help keep resale values much higher, which benifits the consumer.
If you own a store you would not want to sell a line of products that can be purchased somewhere else for what you pay for them. You will never make any money.

 

[Paul Sands]

MAP does not say a store can not sell for less. It says a vender can not advertise for less.

“Advertising” generally includes putting a sign in your store or on your website listing the price so a store generally can’t list it for less than the price the manufacture sets when a MAP agreement exists. There have been some clever workarounds (the Best Buy “add this product to your cart to see the price” comes to mind), but most manufacturers are writing their MAP agreements to preclude that kind sidestepping now.

It can also help keep resale values much higher, which benifits the consumer.

You must work for Neptune. If I purchase an Apex for $500 instead of $700, I’m happy to resell it for $250 instead of $350 (assuming depreciation of 50%) as that saves me $100 overall and the initial price is less. Most people don’t plan to resell their equipment, they buy it to use. I think most people would rather pay less initially than to have to pay more because the company artificially inflated the price.

If you own a store you would not want to sell a line of products that can be purchased somewhere else for what you pay for them. You will never make any money.

Seems like you have an issue with capitalism and competition. I get it. So does Neptune. Good for them that they put themselves in that position and have enough money to hire brand image consultants that troll the boards and defend the company.

 

[Entz]

“Advertising” generally includes putting a sign in your store or on your website listing the price so a store generally can’t list it for less than the price the manufacture sets when a MAP agreement exists. There have been some clever workarounds (the Best Buy “add this product to your cart to see the price” comes to mind), but most manufacturers are writing their MAP agreements to preclude that kind sidestepping now..

Exactly and with the proliferation of online sales it is only ever going to be MAP. The little store has little incentive to sell it for less than MAP anyways unless they are a close friend and you get the wink wink price. Why would they give up juicy margins when they know they everyone else is charging the same. There is no incentive to be competitive.

It is a legal form of price fixing, nothing more. It’s gotten so bad that nearly everyone does it now. Not just this industry..

 

[User1]

Seems like you have an issue with capitalism and competition. I get it. So does Neptune. Good for them that they put themselves in that position and have enough money to hire brand image consultants that troll the boards and defend the company.

Friendly suggestion - don't come in so hot. I get it you don't agree but generally this forum is a bit better than others with regards to statements like this.

 

[Tamberav]

Besides the esthetic reason of going all in one, it is also the controllability from one page that I like. If I have 5 minutes to pop up a page or app and see all of my tank info, this makes it a bit easier than 5 different apps.

Yeah I understand. I only have one app still as nothing I use requires another. The lights are on Apex and Vortech and gyre or jaebo doesn't use an app or you can control them Apex I guess too. The dosers are brs so they use Apex as well.

I just don't have as much info as going all in but seeing how much blah blah is in my dosing containers and things like that are not very important to me. I suppose when some things get more technical...there is more to break or work incorrectly.

This is no excuse for Apex making crappy add-ons though.

 

[bfsaunde]

I'm in the process of switching from APEX to GHL. I have enjoyed the classic and now the 2016 but I've had some problems. I'm not going to list the problems here unless someone really wants to know, because I've made up my mind and I am excited about the change. The reason I am switching is that I really don't like their marketing tactics. Why even announce something 2 years before you deliver and then when you finally "deliver" it's like you are making them at the dining room table. I feel that I deserve to make that statement because I fell for the "you will need a new APEX 2016" to run the Trident. I take full responsibility for the decision but my classic was finally stable and I had all the modules mounted and my EB8s and I didn't want to switch everything. So I kept following and they said they would not release just a head-unit. That anyone wanting to run the Trident would need to buy the whole system. Well, I finally did it and thought I would take some time getting used to the new controller while the Trident was in development. Everyone probably knows, I was pretty ticked off that they did eventually just release the head-unit. Arghhhh. So, I just found a used KH Director/Doser combo and a Profilux 4 Mega Set at a fair price. I should have those in a week and the cutover will begin. I shouldn't have trouble selling all my APEX equipment once converted. I'm going to keep my APEX classic as it was pretty solid after NS repaired the last time. I'm letting the APEX 2016, DOS(never got around to using it),EB832, WXM module, FMM Module (only used for leak detection as the flow meters were crap) go. I got rid of my PMK and ATK a while ago. I'm not a fan of the orange and silver, so I won't miss that.

 

[RobW]

The only thing that I’ve really enjoyed with the new Apex was Wi-Fi built in and Heartbeat
I’m starting to price out a GHL system now,

My walls are opened up right now where the tank will sit. New plumbing and electrical circuits going in. Not a big deal for me to get network there from my a/v rack to have a hard line connection. Matter of fact, I could probably just put all the gear for that in my a/v rack and just extend all the cables for probes, etc. if that can be done? They would only have to go about 25 feet.

 

[RobW]

I have no idea why you would assume that. I can't speak for their user base but I know I personally go back as a end user since 2000. My current controller unit is the Apex along with other relevant and current products. They have a pretty large user base so it could be a mix of old and new but that doesn't really change anything.



Those who want GHL get them. I think you are reading too much into this. Is it more difficult to get than other products, yes.

How is it more difficult to get? You can go right to their US/Canada site and buy it. Aquariumcomputer.com

 

[roberthu526]

Personally, I threw my apex in the trash, after an awful customer service experience. Then they kept contacting me asking if I'd like a replacement several months after I've expressed my dissatisfaction with their service, on the condition I send back the unit. If they offered to replace the unit maybe a month later sure.... nope. Several months later they decided to start to make things right. They never let me work with a different service rep, they never were helpful or apologetic.

I had a terrible experience with Neptune lately too. I literally got yelled at by one the customer service agent because I didn’t have an appointment scheduled before I called. I have never heard such thing as a customer had to schedule a window before calling the customer service. I offered to wait in line but got told that was impossible and I was being rude because I didn’t want to follow their rules... needless to say I was very disappointed.

 

[RobW]

@RobW - I am using both the LX and the slimline 2 and like them both. #GHL lighting provides quite a few options and settings. @Lasse runs slimeline 2, and has great results and you can see in GHL Facebook group some great tank picture using the lights on both lps and sps tanks.

@ShawnSaucier - I went from classic to gold to 2016 and feel the stability from the gold to the 2016 is night and day.

Wonder how many of the 7206 I would need to light my tank. 280 gallon 6ft long, 2ft wide, 3ft high.

 

[roberthu526]

Care to give specifics? I'll give mine based on my support requests.

ATO. I thought it was not working correctly. I called them. They asked me to create a ticket and someone would call me back. While I don't like this support format it is becoming more and more common to "all" businesses dealing with support. They want you to email or use a chat bot then call only has a last resort. Don't believe me then let me know how you reach Amazon retail or AWS cloud, or Comcast, or most other larger players. So once I got past that I said ok, let me create a ticket. About an hour later Luis (I believe that was the name) called me, asked me to describe my issue and/or concern, and then asked me some questions. I don't think I explained it well enough so he asked if he could remote in, told me how to set it up and allow, then he would look and call me back. About 30 minutes later he called, asked if he could make some changes, and after I said yes, said he would and call me back. Last call he explained what he did, why he did it, and asked me to monitor it. If any issues or follow up question reply to the email. If not then he would close the ticket out in 7 days (I believe he said 7). Anyway one example.

Cor 15. Would power up, flow, but I never saw it in Fusion. Email to create a ticket, got a call back, asked what the issue was, then asked to login because what I was explaining they haven't seen before. They couldn't figure out it (this is 2 weeks after launch) so asked if they could send me a 1 link cable. Sure. I had a return pump just wanted to use the Cor so it isn't critical and I could wait. It arrived two days later. I swap it in, same issue. Reply to email, they call back, and back to trouble shooting. Ironically enough it ended up being related to firmware not being updated and caused the pump to fail to be seen via an ID in Fusion / Modules. Once he manually updated the firmware I got a call back and everything was fine. My only issue was the trouble shooting bit by sending a cable rather than the whole unit. Looking back had they sent a whole unit it wouldn't probably have solved it anyway because I believe it was the firmware of the device I plugged the cable into. At the time I felt they are troubleshooting part by part rather than the whole unit if that makes sense.

I don't know, they seem to have stood by the products I owned and at least in once case sent me a replacement. Doesn't mean people don't have bad experiences though nor do I represent the community. No different than two people owning the same brand car yet one has a lemon and the other lemonade...

Last month I called amazon I was able to talk to a representative and got the problem resolved rather than getting yelled at.

 

[AZMSGT]

Does the GHL support the Ecotech Radion G4 Pros?

I am in the market for a controller and the more I read this stuff the more I lean to GHL.. but the big question is will they support all the equipment?

 

[ShawnSaucier]

I had a terrible experience with Neptune lately too. I literally got yelled at by one the customer service agent because I didn’t have an appointment scheduled before I called. I have never heard such thing as a customer had to schedule a window before calling the customer service. I offered to wait in line but got told that was impossible and I was being rude because I didn’t want to follow their rules... needless to say I was very disappointed.

Sorry to hear about this and it sounds like it’s getting worse. It really is a horrible feeling after you’ve spent the money on their product and to not get a decent CS response when you have an issue.

 

[ShawnSaucier]

Does the GHL support the Ecotech Radion G4 Pros?

I am in the market for a controller and the more I read this stuff the more I lean to GHL.. but the big question is will they support all the equipment?

I would suggest using Ecotech Live for your G4’s. It proprietary, easy to set up, cheap, and I think you have more features than a secondary manufacturer.