Fed up with Apex

[ShawnSaucier]

No one is bashing anyone. The thread is nice and respectful. People sharing openions. Experince and whatever data they think they have. You should not feel guilty or anything.
These forums are for this exact purpose..

Definitely not feeling guilty my friend. It was something that was really bothering me and I needed to get off my chest. I am still very attracted to the GHL and some of the different things that it offers.
My only issue is that I and so many others, where made to feel or treated in a fashion that was not the best. This was a discussion about two very similar products. Actually, not really even the products, but more so about the customer experience.

 

[road_runner]

Definitely not feeling guilty my friend. It was something that was really bothering me and I needed to get off my chest. I am still very attracted to the GHL and some of the different things that it offers.
My only issue is that I and so many others, where made to feel or treated in a fashion that was not the best. This was a discussion about two very similar products. Actually, not really even the products, but more so about the customer experience.

Well now people are more informed. People understand there are options and they are not bound by one choice. That's why I love these forums.

 

[ShawnSaucier]

I'm actually in the same as a number of people who have commented here... I got an Apex a couple of months ago, along with my new tank; the tank isn't set up yet, as I'm still waiting on some odds and ends, but I set the Apex up in my QT, just to start playing around, and learning the system. Since then, some of my purchasing decisions have been influenced by it, such getting a Varios 8 pump, and MP60's, since they are compatible with it. But the more I've been looking at things, I'm wondering whether I made a mistake in not going with the Profilux. It seems to be the more robust system, in and of itself, without having to get a dozen different modules for it. That's kind of the debate that I'm having, is whether to stick to the Apex, and start getting modules, or cut my losses, and try out the Profilux. I just wonder how it will work with the Varios and Vortechs that I already have.

I won't speak to their customer service and support one way or the other, as I have not needed to deal with them yet. So I just don't know.

In some way or another, all of our purchases are influenced by each other. I can’t speak for GHL Profilux other than from word of mouth and what I have been learning through this post.
I think that there have been great comments from both sides of the river in this thread. though I have not seen some one state that they left GHL to switch to Apex. From the pictures, as I have not seen an actual GHL system in the wild, the units of the Profilux are a bit more attractive/space saving and seem to have a more robust build quality. If they were selling the same numbers as Apex, would it be the same?? At some point, mass production is going to lead to quality issues, and what may have been easy and cheaper to get in small quantities becomes more difficult as mass is needed.

 

[ShawnSaucier]

In my very humble opinion, Neptune is charging a 'built to last' price, however not delivering a consistent product. Large scale manufacturing can have issues, that is fine, but how they handle those issues relates back to the 'quality' you are buying. There shouldn't be a need for a 14 page thread to raise enough attention to get the guarantee you were promised. My experience with Neptune Systems has been very limited, and it's threads like this that continue my apprehension.

And that was part of the discussion that I had with the rep from Apex. And he was very much in agreement to what you are stating.
Honestly I am apprehensive with most major purchases I do these days. Through out my current tanks life, it has been racked with issues.
But with forums like this and the discussion that we have can only hopefully make things a bit better.

 

[shred5]

Just got off the phone with an Apex rep. They have been following this post since the beginning and I guess it’s creeped over into the social inter webs also.
It was a very productive and well spoken apology/ discussion about the issues I’ve stated I’ve had. They have offered their help to sort out my issues in a very respectful way.
Through the discussion we touched on many of the aspects that I and several of you have discussed about the customer service and treatment that has been received. It was stated that there has been a large amount of changes that have been implemented and taking place over the last 6 or so months due to so many of the same complaints. So it’s not that we are not being heard. But with such a large user base worldwide, it’s a bit difficult to attend to each individual.
In my situation, I had wiped my hands of dealing with the company sometime ago, so have not spoken to a rep in close to a year. And the rep understood my stance on this.
Needless to say, I appreciate that the company has reached out to make things better and not to stop me from making another purchase, but to protect the investment that I have already made.
Besides the “fanboys and fanhaters” this post has stated some great points from either side of the controller market. We need more information and data on what is out there.
As I stated in the beginning, I did not want to bash a company that has been successful for so many, just not for me or my experience. I appreciate the frank and open discussion with the rep from the company and hope that my experience and thoughts will changed in the near future. At least an effort is being made and I find it commendable. Which is why I am willing to at least attempt and work with them.

Good to hear but it really should not have come down to that.

I have nothing against any manufacturer really. If they make a good product at a decent price I will buy it.
I am not a fanboy of any company but I like companies that take care of issues and try to be loyal to them when I can.
I work in the lighting industry and I specify light fixtures on large jobs. I stick with manufacturers that take care of problems.

I own a Apex and a Apex JR right now. I need more for my other systems and I just may go with a Ranco. It has very little to do with this thread either. For me the value is not there anymore. The price has got to high and I do not see the value for me anymore. I have stuff I need more.

 

[road_runner]

In some way or another, all of our purchases are influenced by each other. I can’t speak for GHL Profilux other than from word of mouth and what I have been learning through this post.
I think that there have been great comments from both sides of the river in this thread. though I have not seen some one state that they left GHL to switch to Apex. From the pictures, as I have not seen an actual GHL system in the wild, the units of the Profilux are a bit more attractive/space saving and seem to have a more robust build quality. If they were selling the same numbers as Apex, would it be the same?? At some point, mass production is going to lead to quality issues, and what may have been easy and cheaper to get in small quantities becomes more difficult as mass is needed.

Btw just a piece of history I will share with those who did not go through pre apex times.
I remember digital aquatics favorite defence when customers complained was" well we sell more than apex and have more users that's why you see more complaints"
I also recall they woild have some of their managment "vp of engineering" come out on forums and bash customers and call them haters....look where they are now..

Customers reviews and perception will prevail at the end of the day regardless of what company say..customers are the final judge.

 

[ShawnSaucier]

Btw just a piece of history I will share with those who did not go through pre apex.
I remember digital aquatics favorite defence when customers complained was" well we sell more than apex and have more users that's why you see more complaints"
I also reener they will have some of their managment"vp of engineering" come out on forums and bash customers and call them haters....look where they are now..

Customers reviews and perception will prevail at the end of the day regardless of what company say..customers are the final judge.

I remember all of this. DA was my first controller also. They had so much promise in the beginning. But upgrades never came.
That was when I switched to Apex Classic. And this was when cross platform controlling, besides Tunze, was still a concept/wish list

 

[tastyfish]

Most of what you write seems true - I wish you would do the same for GHL (ie list the pros and cons for GHL)- as I'm considering changing from Neptune to something else - if there is a reason.

I found this on another thread, compiled by a R2R member who made a matrix after switching. The info is there if you search for it.

I’m in no way saying people should change. I’m giving the good and bad of my personal experience and the 20+ other Apex users which I have helped spec and configure for other reefers.

If I wasn’t planning to change anything on the tank, I’d probably stick with what I have. The cost of changing buys a lot of coral and fish, right!?

However as I look at options for Alk, Ca & Mg monitoring and plan a new, larger system, there’s functionality which Neptune do not offer outside the US, and given the advances GHL have made, makes it worthwhile looking to see if changing makes sense. (Equipment failure on a large system, for example).

There’s no one size fits all, you need to look at your system, your kit list and requirements and pick the best solution for you.

I do find it interesting that you praise the Apex for not having failed in 4 years - but criticise Neptune for very poor manufacturing quality?

Yup, compared to GHL gear, which is built like a tank, to high quality standards, the some of the Apex gear is very much like cheaply made chinese kit.

But I give praise where it’s due, the Classic has been solid. But then I purposely run 2 major revisions old firmware given other’s experience with the newer firmware and non-committal answers from Neptune on if the same will happen if I update.

I dont think pricing has anything to do with the tariffs - weren't only some things affected? - I would think it has more to do with the weakness of the Euro and the Strength of the dollar.

It has nothing to do with tarriffs, that was my little joke that I have with Neptune on this. It has little to do with exchange rates, especially as Neptune simply replace the $ sign with a £ sign, artificially inflating the price. Basically, they charge a heck of a lot more here than in the US and far more than can be explained by exchange rate, shipping, taxes and distribution. (I have been importing and exporting technology for 20 years).

Im not a big Neptune fan - but - it seems like some of your statements are written as fact - are they merely your experience (I'm asking sincerely) - or is it common knowledge that certain pumps really do fail after 2 years (I was not aware).

Of course they are my experience. Plus the experience of others. Does this make them less fact? :)

Unfortunately issues on PMUPs and WAVs are well documented. My personal experience on this is out of the 10 local reefers who have bought WAV pumps, 8 of them have had failures within 2 years. The experience some of them tell me of having to harass to get a replacement after a year (despite U.K. and EU law on this), convinced me not to buy the WAV (although everyone who I know uses them says they are great performing pumps!).

As to the warranty - its the same in the US - if I have a problem with my apex -I have to send it to Neptune to diagnose - I cant return it to my local merchant and get a new one. If something is broken 'right out of the box' - perhaps thats possible - but I dont think this is evidence that Neptune 'doesnt care' about Non-US customers.

But that’s not how the rest of the world operates. And actually it’s a non issue if the support people knew that Neptune deal with RMA’s differently so that customers outside of the US don’t have to pay $100 shipping and wait a month for a replacement...

The evidence that Neptune doesn’t care about non US customers is more from the fact that the non US kit was sold as the same spec, when it wasn’t. They’ve eventually corrected their channels on this, however are still shipping 8 year old out of date plug bars with the 2016 model, charging more for it here AND requiring customers to spend even more to get something as simple as 1LINK ports.

After literally years of badgering Neptune to even tell us if they will make an up-to date plug-bar, they refuse to do so either way, then ask US customers, at a US reef show to prioritise what they should bring out next (a new xyz for US market, or a 220v EB832. It’s a good insight into the culture.

Again, the support forums, groups and reefing forums are full of unhappy non US customers on these points most of the people I speak to feel the same.

So, in summary: Is Neptune cr*p? No. I don’t think so. I couldn’t run my tank without it.

Can/should they improve things and do things differently, absolutely. Listen to your customers.

Are there viable and potentially more reliable and capable solutions, depending on your requirements? Yes.

 

[road_runner]

I found this on another thread, compiled by a R2R member who made a matrix after switching. The info is there if you search for it.

I’m in no way saying people should change. I’m giving the good and bad of my personal experience and the 20+ other Apex users which I have helped spec and configure for other reefers.

If I wasn’t planning to change anything on the tank, I’d probably stick with what I have. The cost of changing buys a lot of coral and fish, right!?

However as I look at options for Alk, Ca & Mg monitoring and plan a new, larger system, there’s functionality which Neptune do not offer outside the US, and given the advances GHL have made, makes it worthwhile looking to see if changing makes sense. (Equipment failure on a large system, for example).

There’s no one size fits all, you need to look at your system, your kit list and requirements and pick the best solution for you.



Yup, compared to GHL gear, which is built like a tank, to high quality standards, the some of the Apex gear is very much like cheaply made chinese kit.

But I give praise where it’s due, the Classic has been solid. But then I purposely run 2 major revisions old firmware given other’s experience with the newer firmware and non-committal answers from Neptune on if the same will happen if I update.



It has nothing to do with tarriffs, that was my little joke that I have with Neptune on this. It has little to do with exchange rates, especially as Neptune simply replace the $ sign with a £ sign, artificially inflating the price. Basically, they charge a heck of a lot more here than in the US and far more than can be explained by exchange rate, shipping, taxes and distribution. (I have been importing and exporting technology for 20 years).




Of course they are my experience. Plus the experience of others. Does this make them less fact? :)

Unfortunately issues on PMUPs and WAVs are well documented. My personal experience on this is out of the 10 local reefers who have bought WAV pumps, 8 of them have had failures within 2 years. The experience some of them tell me of having to harass to get a replacement after a year (despite U.K. and EU law on this), convinced me not to buy the WAV (although everyone who I know uses them says they are great performing pumps!).



But that’s not how the rest of the world operates. And actually it’s a non issue if the support people knew that Neptune deal with RMA’s differently so that customers outside of the US don’t have to pay $100 shipping and wait a month for a replacement...

The evidence that Neptune doesn’t care about non US customers is more from the fact that the non US kit was sold as the same spec, when it wasn’t. They’ve eventually corrected their channels on this, however are still shipping 8 year old out of date plug bars with the 2016 model, charging more for it here AND requiring customers to spend even more to get something as simple as 1LINK ports.

After literally years of badgering Neptune to even tell us if they will make an up-to date plug-bar, they refuse to do so either way, then ask US customers, at a US reef show to prioritise what they should bring out next (a new xyz for US market, or a 220v EB832. It’s a good insight into the culture.

Again, the support forums, groups and reefing forums are full of unhappy non US customers on these points most of the people I speak to feel the same.

So, in summary: Is Neptune cr*p? No. I don’t think so. I couldn’t run my tank without it.

Can/should they improve things and do things differently, absolutely. Listen to your customers.

Are there viable and potentially more reliable and capable solutions, depending on your requirements? Yes.

When it come to reliability and build quality. I know some like to throw shades on these topics...I will say you can only understand the diffrence in the build quality when you look at each conteoller.
Ghl build is absolutely impressive....

 

[BZOFIQ]

I have been a Neptune customer since the very beginning when the classic came out - still running multiple controllers at home.

Initially the classic failed me and was replaced and the replacement unit has worked OK more or less. I religiously restart it every few months as to avoid any hickups.

Bought the 2016 controller end of last year to prep for the new build to review reliability. I have it setup on my workbench at work, performing scheduled restarts, outlets switching, alerts etc. From feedback on this and other fora it would appear that the 2016 is projected as less reliable then the classic - I won't even go into the discussion re toys-r-us design aesthetics.

The whole launch of Trident and lack of transparency and flip-flopping re ability to adjust test time / number of test really left a foul taste in my mouth and so I had to make a decision.


There has been up and downs in probably more than a decade since getting my classic originally and it's been "fun" but my views no longer align with the way Neptune does business and so I had to make a decision to no longer support this company.

Using words borrowed from "The Sharks" - I'm out!

 

[road_runner]

just bumped in to this....GHL SMT line.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-look-inside-ghl-headquarters-design-and-assembly.613388/
if they indeed have this in their HQ its impressive...seriously impressive.
usually this is done by contract manufacturer and rarely done in house....wow

 

[Ditto]

I am under the belief that a company should never sacrifice quality over quantity, and it should never be used as an excuse because we sell more.

As @tastyfish stated there is a thread with a wealth of detail on the differences between GHL and Neptune Systems. I should know :)(https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/switching-controllers-from-apex-to-ghl.316106/)

Reefers need to decide what is important to them, and then decide which controller meets their needs.

When I switched 2 years ago, GHL documentation was only in a few locations. I must have read what felt like 100’s of forums most not US to learn what the controller was about, but at the end I jumped because reliability and stability was what I needed. Without stability and reliability your controller is a nuisance, that could damage your investment and livestock of the hobby we all love :)

When the Apex 2016 came out, which I bought because of the Trident supposedly coming soon, and for the power monitoring my nightmares began. The stability, and reliability I use to have with my Apex Classic and then my Apex Gold was gone. I had crashes, lost money and felt that this was no longer the direction for me. Count the WAV, and DOS, DDR issues, I felt the company which I supported no longer deserved my support, on top of it started to impact my love of reefing.

Like others on this thread I am away from home. I rely on my controller to do tasks that I can not do because I am not there. I use my controller not to just monitor but also control. Users argue your bound to have an issue if you hand the keys over to a controller. I agree someday I will run into an issue, but the idea of the failsafe’s and redundancies that you put in place mitigate the risk your willing to take. Why start with a known risk that the brains that run the heart of your operations is unstable?

Once a reefer loses confidence in the Manufacture and your seeing it here, they are going to switch. 7 Years Ago, my Apex Classic and then Apex Gold, I could not say enough good things about Neptune Systems. Those devices were rock solid, never failed, and I had confidence knowing what was monitoring and controlling my tank was doing its job. With this in mind, I kept expanding and adding more modules increasing my stake in Neptune Systems.

Your seeing the same sediment here on the forums. People are spending hard earn dollars and the product should work, and Neptune Systems use to have that track record and they no longer do and with the use of the great forums of reef2reef are posting as such.

I read the posts that Neptune Systems have more units out in the market therefore they are bound to have more issues, or look at the forums see all the posts about Apex products. I am not going to sugar coat it, that Neptune Systems may have more controllers on the market then GHL but one can not argue that the quality between both manufactures are night and day.

Reefers have choices!! Does GHL do everything Neptune Systems does no, but neither does Neptune Systems do everything GHL does.

Both manufactures have a different vision, mindset, and a core principle. With a little bit of research, and a few searches of the forums you can see those differences.

Reefers in the end will choose the manufacture that best fits their needs :)

My only advice is do not comprise stability and reliability, it will bite you if not now it will later.

 

[wiszmaster]

just bumped in to this....GHL SMT line.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-look-inside-ghl-headquarters-design-and-assembly.613388/
if they indeed have this in their HQ its impressive...seriously impressive.
usually this is done by contract manufacturer and rarely done in house....wow

Do indeed!
I visited some time ago and got the tour! I impressive, clean work area!

 

[road_runner]

Do indeed!
I visited some time ago and got the tour! I impressive, clean work area!

wow...for people who understand the real design consumer electronic process, this is an eye treat...

 

[MnFish1]

I am under the belief that a company should never sacrifice quality over quantity, and it should never be used as an excuse because we sell more.

As @tastyfish stated there is a thread with a wealth of detail on the differences between GHL and Neptune Systems. I should know :)(https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/switching-controllers-from-apex-to-ghl.316106/)

Reefers need to decide what is important to them, and then decide which controller meets their needs.

When I switched 2 years ago, GHL documentation was only in a few locations. I must have read what felt like 100’s of forums most not US to learn what the controller was about, but at the end I jumped because reliability and stability was what I needed. Without stability and reliability your controller is a nuisance, that could damage your investment and livestock of the hobby we all love :)

When the Apex 2016 came out, which I bought because of the Trident supposedly coming soon, and for the power monitoring my nightmares began. The stability, and reliability I use to have with my Apex Classic and then my Apex Gold was gone. I had crashes, lost money and felt that this was no longer the direction for me. Count the WAV, and DOS, DDR issues, I felt the company which I supported no longer deserved my support, on top of it started to impact my love of reefing.

Like others on this thread I am away from home. I rely on my controller to do tasks that I can not do because I am not there. I use my controller not to just monitor but also control. Users argue your bound to have an issue if you hand the keys over to a controller. I agree someday I will run into an issue, but the idea of the failsafe’s and redundancies that you put in place mitigate the risk your willing to take. Why start with a known risk that the brains that run the heart of your operations is unstable?

Once a reefer loses confidence in the Manufacture and your seeing it here, they are going to switch. 7 Years Ago, my Apex Classic and then Apex Gold, I could not say enough good things about Neptune Systems. Those devices were rock solid, never failed, and I had confidence knowing what was monitoring and controlling my tank was doing its job. With this in mind, I kept expanding and adding more modules increasing my stake in Neptune Systems.

Your seeing the same sediment here on the forums. People are spending hard earn dollars and the product should work, and Neptune Systems use to have that track record and they no longer do and with the use of the great forums of reef2reef are posting as such.

I read the posts that Neptune Systems have more units out in the market therefore they are bound to have more issues, or look at the forums see all the posts about Apex products. I am not going to sugar coat it, that Neptune Systems may have more controllers on the market then GHL but one can not argue that the quality between both manufactures are night and day.

Reefers have choices!! Does GHL do everything Neptune Systems done no, but neither does Neptune Systems do everything GHL does.

Both manufactures have a different vision, mindset, and a core principle. With a little bit of research, and a few searches of the forums you can see those differences.

Reefers in the end will choose the manufacture that best fits their needs :)

My only advice is do not comprise stability and reliability, it will bite you if not now it will later.

I think I made one of the points you are criticizing. My guess is lets say GHL is making x units last year. If this year they are making x*10,000 units - they will have 10,000 x the complaints as well. I think you're kind of pumping GHL (and maybe rightly so - IDK) - but my guess is that your statements that 'the great forums of reef to reef (except for those who cant get a Trident that they want) - are not flocking away from Neptune Systems. You might want that to be the case - but - based on other threads - it is not happening. (BTW - I'm not saying it should or shouldn't)

 

[road_runner]

I think I made one of the points you are criticizing. My guess is lets say GHL is making x units last year. If this year they are making x*10,000 units - they will have 10,000 x the complaints as well. I think you're kind of pumping GHL (and maybe rightly so - IDK) - but my guess is that your statements that 'the great forums of reef to reef (except for those who cant get a Trident that they want) - are not flocking away from Neptune Systems. You might want that to be the case - but - based on other threads - it is not happening. (BTW - I'm not saying it should or shouldn't)

Not to defend ditto, I really do not know him outside the forum. But, I do not think ditto was criticizing someone in particular..the volume argument is common not only on this post but on many oothers.just like DA used to cite volume when apex started, I see Neptune citing volumes when talking about GHL...
In all honestly the volume argument is silly..both controllers are small operation. I doubt either controllers volumes are in the 100k's units a year.....depend on the product ofcourse...
Just think about it, if trident launch was less than 200units...what do you think the forecast is for other products...
The aquarium industry is small and talking about volumes is meanless...

 

[MnFish1]

Not to defend ditto, I really do not know him. But, I do not think ditto was criticizing someone in particular..the volume argument is common not only on this post but on many oothers.just like DA used to cite volume when apex started, I see Neptune citing volumes when talking about GHL...
In all honestly the volume argument is silly..both controllers are small operation. I doubt either controllers volumes are in the 100ks a year.....depend on the product ofcourse...
Just think about it, if trident launch was less than 200units...what do you think the forecast is for other products...
The aquarium industry is small and talking about volumes is meanless...

The trident launch was not less than 200 units. Even if it was - the waiting list for the Trident at one major retailer is 13,000. the Saltwater aquarium industry is not small - Estimates are that 1.5-2 million households worldwide keep marine aquaria (approximately 800,000 in the United States ). The global wholesale trade in marine species for aquaria amounts to $200-330 million and includes fish, corals, sponges, anemones, molluscs, crustaceans and live rock. The annual, global marine ornamental fish trade is estimated to be 40 million specimens. Approximately 1,500 marine ornamental fish species, 500 invertebrate species, and 200 coral species are wild-caught or farmed and sold into the trade......

 

[road_runner]

The trident launch was not less than 200 units. Even if it was - the waiting list for the Trident at one major retailer is 13,000. the Saltwater aquarium industry is not small - Estimates are that 1.5-2 million households worldwide keep marine aquaria (approximately 800,000 in the United States ). The global wholesale trade in marine species for aquaria amounts to $200-330 million and includes fish, corals, sponges, anemones, molluscs, crustaceans and live rock. The annual, global marine ornamental fish trade is estimated to be 40 million specimens. Approximately 1,500 marine ornamental fish species, 500 invertebrate species, and 200 coral species are wild-caught or farmed and sold into the trade......

Am not about to debate the trident launch cause I think it's been debated and everyone can believe what they like to believe based on data or based on perception:))

All what I wanted to say was, Ditto is passionate about his GHL toys. I am becoming as well.
None of us customers care if Neptune or ghl or other vendors sold more or less...its not like profits are ours ha ha.

Honestly I learned alot from him. Kudos to him showing me and many others what's out there. I do owe it to him that I learned there was an option in a time I felt so frustrated and not valued as a customer thats all.

 

[MnFish1]

Am not about to debate the trident launch cause I think it's been debated and everyone can believe what they like to believe based on data or based on perception:))

All what I wanted to say was, Ditto is passionate about his GHL toys. I am becoming as well.
None of us customers care if Neptune or ghl or other vendors sold more or less...its not like profits are ours ha ha.

Honestly I learned slot from him. Kudos to him showing me and many others what's out there. I do owe it to him that I learned there was an option in a time I felt so frustrated and not valued as a customer thats all.

No disagreement here:). I think though that its common sense - that the more units a company sells - the more complaints they will get - and the more fans they will get. I just don't see any groundswell against Neptune systems on this site (except in this thread - which is titled 'fed up with apex')

 

[road_runner]

No disagreement here:). I think though that its common sense - that the more units a company sells - the more complaints they will get - and the more fans they will get. I just don't see any groundswell against Neptune systems on this site (except in this thread - which is titled 'fed up with apex')

No disagreement at all @MnFish1 . I like discussing topics with you on this forum..

I do not think I have any more value to add to this post. Shared as much as I know and experinced. Am sure there is alot I do not know still.

Glad the OP is getting more attention from Neptune and hopefully his issue is resolved.

As earlier user rightfully cited "shark tank"...am out:)))