Has anyone read this on Ick?

[ebushrow]

I would really like to find a way to test the surface proteins of the tormonts and fins something that would attach directly to the surface and deliver a drug to it to eradicate it (even copper)...or we could use a retrovirus....either way a really good idea, but I don't do that stuff anymore and can't do it at home....maybe we can find someone that does on the forum? They would be rich!

 

[Brew12]

I would really like to find a way to test the surface proteins of the tormonts and fins something that would attach directly to the surface and deliver a drug to it to eradicate it (even copper)...or we could use a retrovirus....either way a really good idea, but I don't do that stuff anymore and can't do it at home....maybe we can find someone that does on the forum? They would be rich!

Maybe someone already has.... :p

 

[Humblefish]

^^ Agreed. Nobody in the aquarium industry has the necessary resources required to research & discover a "reef safe cure" for every disease which plagues our hobby.

Besides, why would they even want to?! People would stop buying bottles of copper, Prazipro, Herbtana, "Kick Ich", etc. etc.

 

[Brew12]

^^ Agreed. Nobody in the aquarium industry has the necessary resources required to research & discover a "reef safe cure" for every disease which plagues our hobby.

Besides, why would they even want to?! People would stop buying bottles of copper, Prazipro, Herbtana, "Kick Ich", etc. etc.

I blame the garlic mafia. ;):p

 

[Humblefish]

I blame the garlic mafia. ;):p

Don't forget the gingerbread man too. ;)

 

[Paul B]

I was wondering when you were going to show up... :)

I didn't really show up, I am in the fusion zone and just came by to say Hello to some of my friends. ;)

 

[melypr1985]

Hello Humble, Merideth and Brew. :)

Hello Paul :D

 

[4FordFamily]

Don't forget the gingerbread man too. ;)

And petroleum?

 

[Lowell Lemon]

@Humblefish

Sorry I took a break and had to go to work.

In the statements about public aquaria and aquaculture I am refering to equipment used in filtration. I do not have an article that wraps up my questions with answers in one neat bundle. Observation is an important tool for all of us. In visiting many wholesale aquarium operations, public aquaria and aquaculture facilities you will notice many types of filtration such as mechanical, chemical and U.V as well as Ozone injection to name a few. I have friends in the aquaculture industry that raise fish for consumption as well as for sport fisheries. I have friends that own aquarium stores, and know individuals who were lead personel in public aquariums and wholesale operations so this is information transfered by personal communication. I am not claiming anything but there are different management options other than attempting to kill whatever the fish has on it or in it. All the while the stress levels are elevated and the immune system suppressed. This has given me a certian point of view. Success should be repeatable and easy in order for more individuals to enter and enjoy the hobby. I had a short history of distributing saltwater fish and inverts to local pet stores during the late 80's and early 90's. I lost alot of money until I started using professional level filtration systems from Aquanetics and TMC. Then I passed this information on to my customers and they had success as well.

I am going to give you an example from Human biology that may sicken many of you. Since the advent of stonger antibiotics to combat even stronger resistant organisms there is a rise in immune system problems for people. One of the latest problems being treated in local hospitals is the complete wipe out of the natural flora and fauna that lives in our intestines. As a result more individuals have lost the ability to properly digest their food. The results are painful and life altering requiring individuals to keep close to a bathroom since the have lost bowel control. The only solution is to restore the natural flora and fauna by giving the patient an innoculation of stool samples from a healthy person to be delivered to the patients intestines to restart the natural flora and fauna that has been killed by the strong antibiotics in the first place. I am not a medical person so don't ask me for the link to the papers. I am friends with both Physicians and OR Nurses that have described the increase in the number of cases in our local hospital. I have no knowledge other than personal communication to back this up. Don't even recall the medical name for the procedure.

I see the possibility for similar problems in fish. Fish in high population captive systems are more prone to disease and infection. The over use of medications that then make it back to ground water or other systems is a problem now and in the future. What happens to most of the medicated aquarium water? It ends up in the sewer system or septic system. It is not to hard to concieve of a problem comming from the disposal of medicated water from quarantine systems. That is just one concern.

The aquaculture industry has to find ways to over come these problems or the culture crashes and the company loses money. Take a look at http://pentairaes.co to see some equipment that allows aquaculture companies to succeed. Pentair Aquatics makes complete laboratory systems for genetic study as well as culture systems. TMC (Tropic Marine Centre) is another company that provides good quality filtration equipment that helps to reduce the number of water born parasites. Keeping the number down helps the fish not to be overwhelmed by parasites that reach count levels not seen in the ocean. This is one method to help fish in a captive systems.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Lowell lemon:
If aquaculture systems were without problems, explain why large aquaculture facilities like booahs reef, Proaquatix's, sea and reef, etc have issues with brooks from time to time, or when they have issues with ick occasionally....I know this from the people that run the facilities, so it is not speculation. There are many issues in this hobby, most hobbiests can not introduce a 50k option into their systems either so the "tech" they have used is only as good as you can afford then...by that reasoning only wealthy people should have tanks then...
Furthermore, aquaculture systems do not bring wild caught fish into any of their systems without a minimum of 6 month qt, ORA uses a 1 year qt...seems like they haven't overcome anything except have a system that allows them the ability to irradiate anything in the fish that are caught for breeding stock. If we could all QT our fish for 1 year, our systems would be all disease free....but who can actually do that?

Actually you are refering to small systems in comparison to many of the larger systems that produce fish for sport fisheries as well as food supply. But your point is actually my point in that there is no such thing as a "clean" fish even after a year of quarantine.

I also agree that management must be affordable and successful to bring more people into the hobby. In my own personal experiance I killed way more fish in prophylatic attempts than I did with good filtration, nutrition and U.V. That is not a claim on my part that this method "cures" disease or parasites but it does seem to give the majority of fish an advantage in a small captive system. I mean majority when the loss rates from shipping exceeded 30 percent for both myself and my customers (retail aquarium stores). With the proper application of filtration the average loss rates ranged from 1-3 percent. Don't ask me for a scientific paper this is personal experiance and it is obvious I am no scientist! So from a business standpoint we thought that was a huge success compared to where we came from.

 

[Brew12]

I did with good filtration, nutrition and U.V

I think this is a key part to your success. The UV keeps the parasite count in the water down to a level where your fish have a chance to develop an immunity before it kills them. PaulB has had much success using Ozone in his system. There is evidence that a diatomic earth filter can do the same thing but would be very maintenance intensive.
I would consider doing one of these 3 things absolutely essential, along with very good husbandry and nutrition, for trying to run an ich managed system.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I think this is a key part to your success. The UV keeps the parasite count in the water down to a level where your fish have a chance to develop an immunity before it kills them. PaulB has had much success using Ozone in his system. There is evidence that a diatomic earth filter can do the same thing but would be very maintenance intensive.
I would consider doing one of these 3 things absolutely essential, along with very good husbandry and nutrition, for trying to run an ich managed system.

I don't have uv, ozone or a diatom filter.

 

[Valkyrie]

The only solution is to restore the natural flora and fauna by giving the patient an innoculation of stool samples from a healthy person to be delivered to the patients intestines to restart the natural flora and fauna that has been killed by the strong antibiotics in the first place. I am not a medical person so don't ask me for the link to the papers. I am friends with both Physicians and OR Nurses that have described the increase in the number of cases in our local hospital. I have no knowledge other than personal communication to back this up. Don't even recall the medical name for the procedure.

Fecal transplantation or fecal microbiota transplant (FMT). We have to do this often for guinea pigs & rabbits that have not only been on antibiotics that have depleted their good gut bacteria, but also when they're suffering from GI statis. I did not know that it was done in humans, but I shouldn't be surprised. *shudder* I'll stick to animals, thanks.

 

[TheEngineer]

It's relatively new in people. I had C. diff about 7 years ago and I still have some effects from it. I thankfully am one of the people who got cured from it using just antibiotics. Those who don't now have the transplant option. It provides a 100% cure

 

[drawman]

Don't even recall the medical name for the procedure.

Fecal transplant. It is used to treat Clostridium difficile infections. Had to chime in :cool:

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Fecal transplantation or fecal microbiota transplant (FMT). We have to do this often for guinea pigs & rabbits that have not only been on antibiotics that have depleted their good gut bacteria, but also when they're suffering from GI statis. I did not know that it was done in humans, but I shouldn't be surprised. *shudder* I'll stick to animals, thanks.

It's relatively new in people. I had C. diff about 7 years ago and I still have some effects from it. I thankfully am one of the people who got cured from it using just antibiotics. Those who don't now have the transplant option. It provides a 100% cure

Fecal transplant. It is used to treat Clostridium difficile infections. Had to chime in :cool:

It took people a long while to remember they are animals.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Does the C. Difficile infection not cause us some concern for the aquatic industry? I guess many of you see that point. So how to proceed is the question?

We need some new protocols through the distribution system, ie, collection or aquaculture, to wholesaler, to store or hobbiest, depending on the model used in the system. One of the problems I have witnessed is the consolidation of business under larger single control to the detriment of the industry ( distribution buying manufacturing and aquatic wholesale operations). I do not believe that pet superstores or pet superdistributors have impoved the quality of product and service delivered to the consumer. You cannot deliver fish or animals in good condition with a mass merchandiser model due to the churn of low paid employees with on the job training. McDonald's business model does not advantage animal health in the aquatic industry. Nor does the mentality of instant gratification of "drive through" service work for the consumer in the aquatic industry. Granted small stores have the same issue of on the job training but often the owner is a major part of the employee pool and their paycheck is directly affected by their ability or in-ability. Not sure what the solution is here just stating the obvious bottlenecks.

One of my store owner friends is passing his business to the next generation. In doing so he spent many year grooming the next generation by sending them to Seachems training classes and trips to Germany to Interzoo. He provided other travel opportunities to them get closer to the source of the fish and products they sell and recommend. He is also a member of the Berlin Aquarium Society and holds advanced degrees in Chemical Engineering. I might also mention his store is one of the few that quarantines all incomming fish both fresh and salt before transfer to the sale systems. He is a great teacher and I admire his business model greatly. He has prepaired the next generation to take over and they are a capable team. This is an example of what is great in the hobby.

So there comes a ethical question of how much loss is acceptable during transport and quarantine through the system to the final consumer? I know those of us that love the fish and inverts we keep have to swollow hard sometimes given our desire to own a slice of the ocean in our homes. Sometimes I have to ask just because I can should I?

 

[TheEngineer]

Does the C. Difficile infection not cause us some concern for the aquatic industry?

Most people have it in their guts already. It becomes an issue when C. diff over-runs the good bacteria. It is usually induced when you take a broad spectrum antibiotic, like azythromycin (Z-pack), too frequently. Each time you take an antibiotic it can take upwards of 2 years before the good bacteria in your gut recover. C. diff is really more of a concern for people who are immuno-compromised in some way, shape or form. If you have a healthy gut, you're not very likely to get taken down by C. diff.

C. diff is somewhat prevalent in the seafood that we eat (around 5% from what I've read). I don't know what the source of that contamination is. It could be after it is caught or it could be in the fish's gut. That said, we don't usually eat the guts of fish (at least I don't!). :)