Help with dying frags

[BurtMacklin]

I have 8 frags in a 10 gallon quarantine tank with a black box light on an 8am-8pm timer that was started on low light and slowly moved up to mid strength (have not measured PAR). The corals went through Bayer and Melafix dips prior to quarantine. They are on quarantine day 22 out of 76. They did well for the first week and then started showing signs of stress (a lot of coral slime). Around day 7 I checked the water parameters and there was an ammonia spike 0.25ppm. I couldn't figure out where it came from, but did two 50% water changes and put a piece of live rock from my DT into the QT. I also thought the flow was too high with the 1050GPH power head I had in there, so I swapped it for a 530GPH nano. When I swapped the powerheads I found a DEAD COCKROACH sucked up against the back of the old power head (found the source of ammonia...). I did another 50% water change after removing the dead roach. The duncan and blasto are doing well, the zoas are intermittently closed (more than the used to be at any given time), the palythoa is not great, and the xenia is dead/dying. Is there anything else I can do for these guys? Did the initial ammonia spike just kill the xenia? Would I be safe to put a new one in there? They just don't seem to be thriving even though the water parameters seem fine.

Livestock
Duncan
Fire blastomussa welsii
Radioactive Palythoa
Xenia
Zoanthid x 4

5/9/21
Temperature: 80F
Salinity: 1.025
pH: 8.15
KH: 9.3
Ammonia: 0
Ca: 420
Mg: 1155
PO4: 0


5/18/21
Temperature: 80F
Salinity: 1.025
pH: 8.15
Ammonia: 0
Nitrates: between 5-10

The first 6 pictures below are from 4/27/21 and the last 3 are from 5/17/21

 

[MnFish1]

1. Zoas can stay closed and 'look bad' for a lot of reasons - and often come back - so hopefully that will help.
2. Given the common-held belief that ammonia tests are inaccurate (especially API) - do you have any documentation that the ammonia dropped? Did you recheck it after water changes? Did you verify with another test?
3. Are you sure that the water changes had the same parameters as the water in the tank? Sometimes high volume water changes like that are more 'stress' to the corals than adding Prime or some other ammonia detoxifier. Additionally, did you make sure your salt was properly mixed (i.e. not put in the tank too soon after mixing) - any of those things could be causing the 'problems' to persist.
4. I know you said that you used a low-light at first and then ramped it up. It looks like that happened over a month or so. I wonder if the corals had too much light too quickly? I know you said you dont have a PAR meter - but do you think you matched the light in the QT tank with the tank they came from?

To me the issue was something that happened in the first week. Could it have been shipping issues/stress? Could it have been the dips were toxic for some reason? Could it indeed have been the ammonia? Was it lighting 'shock'?

There is no way to know. my temptation might be to re-lower the lights, add a secondary filter with carbon, continue good flow and 'wait' (trying to keep things stable). Your PO4 and NO3 were somewhat low - but I dont think that would cause the symptoms you're talking about in a week. I know that WWC has a great customer service - and they may be able to help determine 'what went wrong'.

EDIT: It might be nice to know the rest of your parameters (alkalinity, Po4, etc on 5/18). Good luck - hope this helps a little

 

[BurtMacklin]

1. Zoas can stay closed and 'look bad' for a lot of reasons - and often come back - so hopefully that will help.
2. Given the common-held belief that ammonia tests are inaccurate (especially API) - do you have any documentation that the ammonia dropped? Did you recheck it after water changes? Did you verify with another test?
3. Are you sure that the water changes had the same parameters as the water in the tank? Sometimes high volume water changes like that are more 'stress' to the corals than adding Prime or some other ammonia detoxifier. Additionally, did you make sure your salt was properly mixed (i.e. not put in the tank too soon after mixing) - any of those things could be causing the 'problems' to persist.
4. I know you said that you used a low-light at first and then ramped it up. It looks like that happened over a month or so. I wonder if the corals had too much light too quickly? I know you said you dont have a PAR meter - but do you think you matched the light in the QT tank with the tank they came from?

To me the issue was something that happened in the first week. Could it have been shipping issues/stress? Could it have been the dips were toxic for some reason? Could it indeed have been the ammonia? Was it lighting 'shock'?

There is no way to know. my temptation might be to re-lower the lights, add a secondary filter with carbon, continue good flow and 'wait' (trying to keep things stable). Your PO4 and NO3 were somewhat low - but I dont think that would cause the symptoms you're talking about in a week. I know that WWC has a great customer service - and they may be able to help determine 'what went wrong'.

EDIT: It might be nice to know the rest of your parameters (alkalinity, Po4, etc on 5/18). Good luck - hope this helps a little

1. I agree and am least worried about the zoas.

2. The ammonia test was done with Salifert, not API, and went back to zero after the water change.

3. The water parameters were the same and the salt was properly mixed.

4. The lights have been lower than the lights at the store, but they were at a greater depth in the tank at the store. I did back down on the lights again yesterday.

The only other thing that might have stressed them was the salinity was not matched perfectly to the store when they were first transferred due to a non-calibrated refractometer, but it was a difference of 1.027 at the store to 1.024 in my tank initially.

What are your thoughts on the radioactive palythoa? It seems deflated and not as open before. It also seems to be flaky. Is it on the way out too, or might it recover?

 

[MnFish1]

1. I agree and am least worried about the zoas.

2. The ammonia test was done with Salifert, not API, and went back to zero after the water change.

3. The water parameters were the same and the salt was properly mixed.

4. The lights have been lower than the lights at the store, but they were at a greater depth in the tank at the store. I did back down on the lights again yesterday.

The only other thing that might have stressed them was the salinity was not matched perfectly to the store when they were first transferred due to a non-calibrated refractometer, but it was a difference of 1.027 at the store to 1.024 in my tank initially.

What are your thoughts on the radioactive palythoa? It seems deflated and not as open before. It also seems to be flaky. Is it on the way out too, or might it recover?

Ok - interesting. How long did you acclimate the coral from the store to your tank. If you just temperature acclimated them and put them in, that could be a problem. The reason I recommended carbon - is that especially in a small tank - if corals get stressed, they can release toxins, etc - that can damage others and cause persistent problems (your water changes might have helped this). Zoas especially have done this (in my experience) with leathers next.

I don't see the 'flakiness' I do know that I have had zoos looking like that for a month - that recovered. The hard corals can also recover, but not as quickly.

 

[BurtMacklin]

Ok - interesting. How long did you acclimate the coral from the store to your tank. If you just temperature acclimated them and put them in, that could be a problem. The reason I recommended carbon - is that especially in a small tank - if corals get stressed, they can release toxins, etc - that can damage others and cause persistent problems (your water changes might have helped this). Zoas especially have done this (in my experience) with leathers next.

I don't see the 'flakiness' I do know that I have had zoos looking like that for a month - that recovered. The hard corals can also recover, but not as quickly.

They were only temperature acclimated. Uhg yeah I was unaware that the slime they released could be toxic to each other. They definitely did that before I found the cockroach (see picture). I just have a basic HOB filter for this tank, but I can rig a small carbon filter into there. Who knows what else was on that cockroach that could have upset them.

 

[MnFish1]

They were only temperature acclimated. Uhg yeah I was unaware that the slime they released could be toxic to each other. They definitely did that before I found the cockroach (see picture). I just have a basic HOB filter for this tank, but I can rig a small carbon filter into there. Who knows what else was on that cockroach that could have upset them.

I really wonder about damage due to toxins due to stress (the ammonia, change in salinity, etc). I would strive for stability now. Also - sometimes, trying to treat dying coral next to living coral is a problem. Its hard to tell how big your frags are (they look small) - depending on the price, I might remove some of the hard corals that 'look dead' (I also sometimes lift hard corals out of the water and 'smell' by wafting my hand over the coral if it smells like dead fish, I toss it. (NOTE - I would not stick my face directly into coral - and I wouldn't do this AT ALL with the ZOAS).

 

[BurtMacklin]

I really wonder about damage due to toxins due to stress (the ammonia, change in salinity, etc). I would strive for stability now. Also - sometimes, trying to treat dying coral next to living coral is a problem. Its hard to tell how big your frags are (they look small) - depending on the price, I might remove some of the hard corals that 'look dead' (I also sometimes lift hard corals out of the water and 'smell' by wafting my hand over the coral if it smells like dead fish, I toss it. (NOTE - I would not stick my face directly into coral - and I wouldn't do this AT ALL with the ZOAS).

Any chance some of that xenia survives and regrows or should that be pulled?

Also see the pics attached for the deflated and flaking radioactive palythoa. They are small frags, but the palythoa was kind of expensive and I'd rather not toss it.

 

[MnFish1]

Any chance some of that xenia survives and regrows or should that be pulled?

Also see the pics attached for the deflated and flaking radioactive palythoa. They are small frags, but the palythoa was kind of expensive and I'd rather not toss it.

OK - to me it looks like it should 'come back'. Xenia can survive almost anything. Also curious - was the place you bought the coral from aware that you were putting all of them in a 10 gallon tank? Because - (to me) - it seems like there was a possibility of 'coral warfare' from the start. BTW - the initial pictures look like they were in great condition

 

[BurtMacklin]

OK - to me it looks like it should 'come back'. Xenia can survive almost anything. Also curious - was the place you bought the coral from aware that you were putting all of them in a 10 gallon tank? Because - (to me) - it seems like there was a possibility of 'coral warfare' from the start. BTW - the initial pictures look like they were in great condition

Ha they did not ask and probably did not care. They seem like a lot of young people pushing profits at this LFS rather than providing the best care/education to clients. I just added carbon to the HOB, so we'll see what happens. About 1/3 of the xenia has already melted away, so I wouldn't be surprised if it all dies.

 

[MixedFruitBasket]

Ha they did not ask and probably did not care. They seem like a lot of young people pushing profits at this LFS rather than providing the best care/education to clients. I just added carbon to the HOB, so we'll see what happens. About 1/3 of the xenia has already melted away, so I wouldn't be surprised if it all dies.

Just a thought here...Palys are very, very toxic. Especially to other corals. I fear with that little bit of space they will eventually win out or nuke the tank and take everyone with them. And since 10 gallons isn't a lot of room you may want to pick a species and stick to no more than three variations of that species, or a family of corals where the species get along without trying to destroy each other.

 

[fachatga]

Could they be still unhappy with 530GPH in just gallons? Some wouldn’t want need or want more than 200 or so. Just my .02. Since that can cause some corals not to open all the way or stress a bit IME

 

[BurtMacklin]

Just a thought here...Palys are very, very toxic. Especially to other corals. I fear with that little bit of space they will eventually win out or nuke the tank and take everyone with them. And since 10 gallons isn't a lot of room you may want to pick a species and stick to no more than three variations of that species, or a family of corals where the species get along without trying to destroy each other.

Are they likely to hurt the other corals even if not sick? What about in my 65 gallon DT? If the 10 gallon is too small for these guys to make it another 50 days in quarantine together, then I only have four options; move the paly to the DT and risk quarantine issues, leave it and hope they dint kill each other, throw it out, or set up another QT (not ideal).

 

[BurtMacklin]

Could they be still unhappy with 530GPH in just gallons? Some wouldn’t want need or want more than 200 or so. Just my .02. Since that can cause some corals not to open all the way or stress a bit IME

The powerhead is angled away from the frag rack and flow seems pretty minimal, I really don't think that's the issue right now.

 

[blasterman]

Zoas and palys don't release toxins to kill other corals with the exception of a few species you dont have. They might damage other corals touching them, but thats it. Thats not the problem.

Minor levels of ammonia don't bother corals. Ammonia only hurts oxygen breathing organisms. If anything ammonia is fuel for the zooanthalae to algae in corals. Ive added ammonia fishless frag tanks and even acropora doesnt care. Now, elevated ammonia might kill a turbo which in turn causes problems, but ammonia by itself doesnt.

With all these water changes your nutrient levels are certainly zero. There's a bad misconception in this hobby that water changes return aquarium water to perfect default. Far from the case. You basically have soft corals in sterile reef water with likely zero nutrients (phosphate and nitrate), and I guarantee this will make them decline. You can get away with this for a few days,, but longer will cause problems..

Xenia will not grow without nitrate present and will slowly die.

 

[BurtMacklin]

Zoas and palys don't release toxins to kill other corals with the exception of a few species you dont have. They might damage other corals touching them, but thats it. Thats not the problem.

Minor levels of ammonia don't bother corals. Ammonia only hurts oxygen breathing organisms. If anything ammonia is fuel for the zooanthalae to algae in corals. Ive added ammonia fishless frag tanks and even acropora doesnt care. Now, elevated ammonia might kill a turbo which in turn causes problems, but ammonia by itself doesnt.

With all these water changes your nutrient levels are certainly zero. There's a bad misconception in this hobby that water changes return aquarium water to perfect default. Far from the case. You basically have soft corals in sterile reef water with likely zero nutrients (phosphate and nitrate), and I guarantee this will make them decline. You can get away with this for a few days,, but longer will cause problems..

Xenia will not grow without nitrate present and will slowly die.

Nitrates measured between 5-10 two days ago. Any recommendations moving forward with phosphate and nitrates in this frag tank? Dose phytoplankton?

 

[MnFish1]

Zoas and palys don't release toxins to kill other corals with the exception of a few species you dont have. They might damage other corals touching them, but thats it. Thats not the problem.

Minor levels of ammonia don't bother corals. Ammonia only hurts oxygen breathing organisms. If anything ammonia is fuel for the zooanthalae to algae in corals. Ive added ammonia fishless frag tanks and even acropora doesnt care. Now, elevated ammonia might kill a turbo which in turn causes problems, but ammonia by itself doesnt.

With all these water changes your nutrient levels are certainly zero. There's a bad misconception in this hobby that water changes return aquarium water to perfect default. Far from the case. You basically have soft corals in sterile reef water with likely zero nutrients (phosphate and nitrate), and I guarantee this will make them decline. You can get away with this for a few days,, but longer will cause problems..

Xenia will not grow without nitrate present and will slowly die.

If you read what he wrote, the decline started within a week. having experienced this myself, I disagree with you that corals do not release toxins (Zoas) - especially when 'stressed' or 'sick'. I do not think 0 nutrients is or was the problem because of the timing. I'm curious, though, where do you have the data that only 'certain kinds of zoas release toxins. (Note - I'm not talking about palytoxin, I'm talking about toxins in general).

Another problem, without a seneye its impossible to know whether his ammonia was 'minor' or not all of the time. While I agree with you that people go a little too crazy about ammonia, and I have read this before that 'corals don't breathe oxygen'. I disagree. Try putting coral in a low oxygen environment (or one without oxygen). I don't think they will do well.

"Coral reefs are important in determining the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. ... However, both the coral polyps and the zooxanthellae must also use oxygen through the process of respiration (the same process humans use in breathing)."

 

[BurtMacklin]

If you read what he wrote, the decline started within a week. having experienced this myself, I disagree with you that corals do not release toxins (Zoas) - especially when 'stressed' or 'sick'. I do not think 0 nutrients is or was the problem because of the timing. I'm curious, though, where do you have the data that only 'certain kinds of zoas release toxins. (Note - I'm not talking about palytoxin, I'm talking about toxins in general).

Another problem, without a seneye its impossible to know whether his ammonia was 'minor' or not all of the time. While I agree with you that people go a little too crazy about ammonia, and I have read this before that 'corals don't breathe oxygen'. I disagree. Try putting coral in a low oxygen environment (or one without oxygen). I don't think they will do well.

"Coral reefs are important in determining the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. ... However, both the coral polyps and the zooxanthellae must also use oxygen through the process of respiration (the same process humans use in breathing)."

Thoughts on keeping them all in this 10 gallon? There are 54 days of quarantine left.

 

[MnFish1]

Thoughts on keeping them all in this 10 gallon? There are 54 days of quarantine left.

I personally do not QT corals. I have not had a problem. I do not believe that most people do QT for fish, and even less so for corals. Part of this depends on where the corals came from. For example, if they were from a 'coral farm' where they grew for some weeks, with no fish, you've already completed 'some' of the 76 days. 76 days has also recently been challenged as 'too long' - with some people opting for 45 days. For the most part I think consistency in QT is the most important as compared to the actual 'method'. BTW - are there fish in your current tank (where the corals are going)

 

[BurtMacklin]

I personally do not QT corals. I have not had a problem. I do not believe that most people do QT for fish, and even less so for corals. Part of this depends on where the corals came from. For example, if they were from a 'coral farm' where they grew for some weeks, with no fish, you've already completed 'some' of the 76 days. 76 days has also recently been challenged as 'too long' - with some people opting for 45 days. For the most part I think consistency in QT is the most important as compared to the actual 'method'. BTW - are there fish in your current tank (where the corals are going)

The corals were growing in a large display with other fish at the LFS, so quarantine didn't start until they got home. The DT is a 65 gallon with 20 gallon sump and fish (two black phantom clowns, 2 Banggai Cardinals, a tail spot blenny, a royal gramma, and a green Mandarin Goby). Reef safe clean up crew with turbo snails, cerith snails, dwarf hermit crabs, and peppermint shrimp.

All fish and inverts were quarantined. The 76 days for the corals is for the max time documented for the cystic stages of ich to turn into free swimmers.

 

[MnFish1]

The corals were growing in a large display with other fish at the LFS, so quarantine didn't start until they got home. The DT is a 65 gallon with 20 gallon sump and fish (two black phantom clowns, 2 Banggai Cardinals, a tail spot blenny, a royal gramma, and a green Mandarin Goby). Reef safe clean up crew with turbo snails, cerith snails, dwarf hermit crabs, and peppermint shrimp.

All fish and inverts were quarantined. The 76 days for the corals is for the max time documented for the cystic stages of ich to turn into free swimmers.

Yes - I know, I've read the studies. I don't remember the exact percentage involved, but my recollection was it was an extremely small number of living CI at 76 days. Thus people have started raising the temperature (to 80 or so) - and then shortening the time. But like I said - im not recommending that you do that - keep your QT consistent.