Hobby grade “quarantine” probably kills more fish than it saves.

[Paul B]

There are those that have spawning clownfish that eat nothing but pellets. Ofc clownfish are considered a easy beginner fish.

I always say that in any discussion, clownfish don't count. They are very hard to kill and have a very thick slime coat which allows them to live in anemones. They are very hardy and I think of them like ants. You have to step on them to kill them. ;Wideyed

I also have no problem with TTM as to me that is like diatoming. You are removing some parasites while giving the fish time to improve their immunity without totally eliminating all the pathogens which I am totally against and medication for no reason is just silly.

That would be like me giving myself radiation treatment or Chemo just in case I get cancer.

I don't know if parasites would eat or live on fresh seafoods like clams. I actually have no idea but I assume they will be in fresh clams because everything in the sea is in clams as they are filter feeders and don't spit out parasites. They digest them just as fish do.

Remember "Success and Great Success" are thrown around a lot on these forums. No one has great success in 3 or 4 years. That is maybe the life span of a pod.

 

[Lasse]

guys give advice to people who's fish have ich, etc. and are dying?? Do you just tell them to feed heavy and hope for the best??

Always give the advice that if there is indications of a certain disease - treat appropriately - including drugs. But what I do not advocate for is treat in case of..... Do not change subject if you can´t defend yourself.

Do you still don't believe my tank is ich free?

What I believe is not the question - what I know is another. You can´t know this because you use indirect evidence´s. You have not enough solid evidence to say so. I use latest technology in order to say that my tank is parasite free - at least for these that are DNA sequenced. I don not know for sure but I have more solid evidence than you to state this


I have worked in LFS for many years was and have thousands of examples there freshwater ich either was dormant in the home aquarium or that it exist a dormant stage even when the parasite is attached to the fish. I have seen this with marine ich too.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Squidward]

Always give the advice that if there is indications of a certain disease - treat appropriately - including drugs. But what I do not advocate for is treat in case of..... Do not change subject if you can´t defend yourself.


What I believe is not the question - what I know is another. You can´t know this because you use indirect evidence´s. You have not enough solid evidence to say so. I use latest technology in order to say that my tank is parasite free - at least for these that are DNA sequenced. I don not know for sure but I have more solid evidence than you to state this


I have worked in LFS for many years was and have thousands of examples there freshwater ich either was dormant in the home aquarium or that it exist a dormant stage even when the parasite is attached to the fish. I have seen this with marine ich too.

Sincerely Lasse

So how is it not better to eliminate the parasite in the fist place so there wouldn't be a problem in the display?? How did I not defend myself lol? I already told you I do TTM and know my tank is ich free. It's common sense to have 11 tangs and never seen ich. If someone wants to waste their money and test their water go for it. My water is ich free. No need to waste money to prove someone thousands of miles away that my tank is ich free. Just don't believe me. All I know is I'm able to keep any Tang I want without worrying about ich and that is all that matters. Anyone want to be able to keep an Achilles, Powder Blue, Hippo, or any other ich magnet fish, I'm proof anyone can have an ich free tank. Peace!

 

[Lasse]

You still not get it. With your way of argue - you can´t know if the tank is ich free or not. What you know is that you during these 2 years not have had any visible outbreaks and you not either know if it was the TTM that have made this or not. To know this you should at least have one control of each species. A control that just get directly into the same water as the others. You can suspect but not know. Everything can just be circumstances - or with your own words - pure luck.

There is a very well known case of this told in many schools in Europe.

In former West Germany - the human birth rate decreased at the same rate as the nesting stork population decreased.
It is a statistically reliable covariation between the number of children born in West Germany (1965-1980) and the number of nesting stork pair at the same time

​

The statistical probability that the curves would not be able to be covariable is less than one in a thousand!!

But I hope that you can see the biological unreasonableness in this. Even if the to curves covariable to 99.9 % - it could not be true.

Your three factors - TTM - No Ich outbreak - concentration of vulnerable species may covariable in order to state that there is a connection - but if it is true or not - you can´t know without taking in other factors. and you can use as much common sense as you want - it will not necessarily be true. Common sense in Sweden say that if it is a high rate of rowan-berry in the fall - it will be a harsh winter. On the other side of the Baltic - in Finland - common sense say the total opposite........it will be a mild winter

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

Anyone want to be able to keep an Achilles, Powder Blue, Hippo, or any other ich magnet fish, I'm proof anyone can have an ich free tank. Peace!

LOL, I wish I liked tangs better but I just don't. Except for Hippo's which I find rather cool looking.
My last one was 10 years old.



They are just to common for me.

I like odder fish and I like them spawning like my Watchmans. My last pair also lived 10 years.


Perchlets


Of course these guys are not rare, but 10 year old ones are. It seems most of my fish live 10 years. I think this one jumped out.


These also are not rare, but they spawn constantly.



I couldn't keep these shrimpfish very long. Too many brine shrimp


StrippedClingfish




Clingfish Look how his colors just Pop!!


Banannafish


This guy I collected in the sea


Janss Pipefish







Sunburst anthius




My fish are not particularly ich magnets (except for my copperband, long nose butterfly and Hippo) but they are rarer and not seen as much as tangs which everybody keeps especially new hobbiests.

But as a diver, I don't like them as I have swum through thousands of them. But these other fish are not seen that often in the sea or in a home tank. I go for unusual, not common, but thats just me.

 

[MnFish1]

I have worked in LFS for many years was and have thousands of examples there freshwater ich either was dormant in the home aquarium or that it exist a dormant stage even when the parasite is attached to the fish. I have seen this with marine ich too.

This is very interesting - and I just read about an 'ich' carrier state, whereby they can remain on the fish for a longer period. I don't know how often that happens - but it could partly explain the 'I did copper, TTM, etc etc' and then 4 months later - without adding anything CI showed up.

Your comments about not having a 'control' is exactly true - but that logic also should be applied to 'immune tanks'. For example your method of acclimating the fish slowly etc. But - my comment was not to criticise your method - but to bring up a question - do you know of any randomized controlled studies looking at dropping a fish into the tank vs. QT (in the public aquarium arena - or aquaculture) - or do aquaria QT just becasue 'thats the way they think it should be done'?

 

[Lasse]

This is very interesting - and I just read about an 'ich' carrier state, whereby they can remain on the fish for a longer period. I don't know how often that happens - but it could partly explain the 'I did copper, TTM, etc etc' and then 4 months later - without adding anything CI showed up.

There is one freshwater fish - Chromobotia macracanthus - that make the Tang vulnerability to marine ich just be a mild and pleasant summer wind according to its vulnerability for freshwater ich. It was enough that it was transported an hour or two a cold winter day between the shop and the customers tank to get an outbreak of freshwater white spot (not the same parasites but with the same life style - a good example of convergent evolution) Mostly first shown in the newcomer - but not always. The tank where it comes from (in the LFS) not a sign of disease!!!. There was a slight covariable between outer temperature and occasion of breaks out. We start to pack these fish in newspaper and advise people to be careful so the temperature did not drop in the bag. It gets better but normally - we just give away a remedy against freshwater ich for free that they could use if it become an outbreak..

It happens also that other fish transported from us either show up a disease in their new home - the old unaffected in the start - or the old show up the disease and the newcomer not. All of this was fish that not show any indications in the shop before delivery!!!! And a double check in our aquariums (when this happens) to 95 % shown no disease indications.

We are dealing with parasites that have been here as long as our fish. What i have learned about parasites is that they always found their way - it is all about to protecting their genome. It should not surprise me if some both had genetic information for being dormant on the host or/and is adapted for very long dormant periods in the substrate. I would be more surprised if it not was this way.

But this is evolutionary speculations with - as I know - no hard fact in the experimental concentrated science that dominate our world today.

but that logic also should be applied to 'immune tanks'. For example your method of acclimating the fish slowly etc.

Of cause - my logic is not one way street. But in this case - the e-DNA analyse could not show any parasite presence in my aquarium - I´m standing a little bit more steady in this case compare with my counterpart.

do you know of any randomized controlled studies looking at dropping a fish into the tank vs. QT (in the public aquarium arena - or aquaculture) - or do aquaria QT just becasue 'thats the way they think it should be done'?

Nope - the only thing I know is connected with my aquarium - If I not do this - there seems to be a 50% chance that the introduction goes southwards - especially with the aggressions. I will have a test in the future - my last addition was two midnight pygmy basslet and after 3 days in the DT - they dominate.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[i cant think]

LOL, I wish I liked tangs better but I just don't. Except for Hippo's which I find rather cool looking.
My last one was 10 years old.



They are just to common for me.

I like odder fish and I like them spawning like my Watchmans. My last pair also lived 10 years.


Perchlets


Of course these guys are not rare, but 10 year old ones are. It seems most of my fish live 10 years. I think this one jumped out.


These also are not rare, but they spawn constantly.



I couldn't keep these shrimpfish very long. Too many brine shrimp


StrippedClingfish




Clingfish Look how his colors just Pop!!


Banannafish


This guy I collected in the sea


Janss Pipefish







Sunburst anthius




My fish are not particularly ich magnets (except for my copperband, long nose butterfly and Hippo) but they are rarer and not seen as much as tangs which everybody keeps especially new hobbiests.

But as a diver, I don't like them as I have swum through thousands of them. But these other fish are not seen that often in the sea or in a home tank. I go for unusual, not common, but thats just me.

Similar thing to me.. although many of my fish are common, my CBB and Blue eye kole tang are very much Ich magnets, the rest of my fish (Jade wrasse, Aussie Scott’s wrasse, Radiant wrasse, Two lubbocks) are common as hell but very hardy

 

[Tamberav]

I always say that in any discussion, clownfish don't count. They are very hard to kill and have a very thick slime coat which allows them to live in anemones. They are very hardy and I think of them like ants. You have to step on them to kill them. ;Wideyed

I also have no problem with TTM as to me that is like diatoming. You are removing some parasites while giving the fish time to improve their immunity without totally eliminating all the pathogens which I am totally against and medication for no reason is just silly.

That would be like me giving myself radiation treatment or Chemo just in case I get cancer.

I don't know if parasites would eat or live on fresh seafoods like clams. I actually have no idea but I assume they will be in fresh clams because everything in the sea is in clams as they are filter feeders and don't spit out parasites. They digest them just as fish do.

Remember "Success and Great Success" are thrown around a lot on these forums. No one has great success in 3 or 4 years. That is maybe the life span of a pod.

Yeah, that is definitely one of the things about "QT" as they mean a lot to different people. QT to me now is hybrid TTM but before that I did observation in a tank with live rock from the DT with macroalgae. if they were good for a month or few, into the DT they went.

Observation is how I started QTing 10 years ago... I lived in a small town and everything had to be shipped, we had nothing local. I could not just add fish to my DT because my tank was new and I didn't have a Paul B tank lol So I would weed out the most virulent parasites in a separate observation tank. Fish that would come in shipped and probably die in 1-3 days or hours because they got sick in shipping. Most were fine though and made it out of the observation tank and into the DT and that worked pretty well.

I did have to treat a few fish from my LFS recently for a nasty bacterial infection that was not going away. These fish were skinny so just low immune system from the start. I bought them knowingly that they did have an infection. Even us people need antibiotics sometimes though. I did it as a dip... so 45 min dip in Nitrofuracin green (abx + some methylene blue) once a day for 14 days. So this way they do not STAY in the antibiotics but also get treatment. It works pretty well.

I know moving fish is stressful but I like that option over prolonged treatment of medications. I find that if you are quick in the swap they get over it pretty fast. You got to be so fast they almost don't know what happened.

 

[Tamberav]

When I had a ich show up on fish in my DT (before I changed to TTM).... it was never the tangs or the copperband

It was always a stressed fish that had it. Stressed fish are ich magnets!

 

[Paul B]

This morning I looked at my tank and there was a flood on the floor and the tank was about 5" low. Water was splashing all over the place from the semi submerged powerheads.

Anyway, I found and fixed the problem but needed about 10 gallons quickly. I drove a few hundred yards to the sea and waded into the sea to collect the water.

15 minutes later that water was in my reef. I didn't have time to warm it up, test it or have it blessed by a priest.

The fish are fine but the copperband and long nose butterfly just keep laughing at me.

If I ran a quarantined system, I doubt I would do that.

 

[alton]

I had this guy for 13 years. Went thru my issue when I lost most of my fish and he never stopped eating. I think he liked the fact of not having competition for food. He was always great for catching fish that I wanted to remove them from the display. I would place the trap in the tank and he enjoyed the free food. The fish I really wanted to catch would join him and and like that both where removed with one going in a bucket to the fish store, and my CB back into the display. I have never bought another CB

 

[Squidward]

You still not get it. With your way of argue - you can´t know if the tank is ich free or not. What you know is that you during these 2 years not have had any visible outbreaks and you not either know if it was the TTM that have made this or not. To know this you should at least have one control of each species. A control that just get directly into the same water as the others. You can suspect but not know. Everything can just be circumstances - or with your own words - pure luck.

There is a very well known case of this told in many schools in Europe.

In former West Germany - the human birth rate decreased at the same rate as the nesting stork population decreased.
It is a statistically reliable covariation between the number of children born in West Germany (1965-1980) and the number of nesting stork pair at the same time

​

The statistical probability that the curves would not be able to be covariable is less than one in a thousand!!

But I hope that you can see the biological unreasonableness in this. Even if the to curves covariable to 99.9 % - it could not be true.

Your three factors - TTM - No Ich outbreak - concentration of vulnerable species may covariable in order to state that there is a connection - but if it is true or not - you can´t know without taking in other factors. and you can use as much common sense as you want - it will not necessarily be true. Common sense in Sweden say that if it is a high rate of rowan-berry in the fall - it will be a harsh winter. On the other side of the Baltic - in Finland - common sense say the total opposite........it will be a mild winter

Sincerely Lasse

I will gladly inform you if ich magically shows up in my tank Lasse. Til then, yes my tank is Ich Free lol

 

[ingchr1]

I will gladly inform you if ich magically shows up in my tank Lasse. Til then, yes my tank is Ich Free lol

I could have missed it, but what do you do for ich pathways other than fish?

 

[Squidward]

I could have missed it, but what do you do for ich pathways other than fish?

I qurantined corals 30 days minimum. Same for inverts unless specified differently like urchins where all you need is a rinse. I go by Humblefish's inverts qurantine chart if needed.

 

[ingchr1]

I qurantined corals 30 days minimum. Same for inverts unless specified differently like urchins where all you need is a rinse. I go by Humblefish's inverts qurantine chart if needed.

Is 30 days long enough? I thought it was at least 45 days if running > 80.6F. Otherwise its the normal time period.

 

[Squidward]

Is 30 days long enough? I thought it was at least 45 days if running > 80.6F. Otherwise its the normal time period.

You can be extra safe and do 45 days. I did 30 days and have been successful. But I haven't added any corals or inverts in more than a year.

 

[ingchr1]

You can be extra safe and do 45 days. I did 30 days and have been successful. But I haven't added any corals or inverts in more than a year.

I read HF as 42 days (6 weeks) as the minimum at > 80.6F, 45 days to be safe.

If you are only doing 30 days, is it conceivable that ich could make it through your process and end up in your tank? Possibly even be in there now?

 

[Squidward]

I read HF as 42 days (6 weeks) as the minimum at > 80.6F, 45 days to be safe.

If you are only doing 30 days, is it conceivable that ich could make it through your process and end up in your tank? Possibly even be in there now?

No I highly doubt it. You'd think ich would've shown up already after 2 years+ if there was ich. My 3 Lavendar tangs constantly fought and chased each other when i added them. All that fighting and stress and no ich.

 

[i cant think]

No I highly doubt it. You'd think ich would've shown up already after 2 years+ if there was ich. My 3 Lavendar tangs constantly fought and chased each other when i added them. All that fighting and stress and no ich.

Yes. However my tank has been running for 1.66 years, the newest corals dipped and fish were qted at the store. My 1.5 year old Blue eye Kole tang who was most likely 1-2 years old when he was in the shop (1-2 years old when he was brought into captivity)still got Ich (Yes he fought it off before we could dip him). Ich can still pass through QT it will always be in your tank. Either lying dormant and waiting for the time to strike or active and you’ve just never noticed it (The tang was the fourth addition after a CBB, two clowns and a Foxface rabbit)