How about a nightmare build thread?
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dantimdad
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Gregg @ ADP
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No kidding.Now, come on! You KNOW that Red Sea Skimmer was the Cadillac of skimmers. LOL!!!
‘Hey, we have a huge budget for a reef tank. Let’s put a Red Sea skimmer into a sump that’s 1/4 the size it should be!’
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Gregg @ ADP
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OK. As I stated previously, the company that designed, installed, and maintained this aquarium (~380 gal) did about as well with the filtration as they did with everything else.
In looking at the actual aquarium footprint (70” x 36”), and the fact there is a substantial cabinet space under it, you wouldn’t think it would be possible to really screw it up. Then again, after seeing how they did everything else, you would have to assume they did.
You would be correct.
The first thing they did was (presumably as support) install a few sheets of plywood down the middle length of the tank, effectively cutting the available space in half (I’ll get a pic next week). Again, it was a from scratch build, so I have no idea why this was necessary. Then, all they could fit into the remaining space was a 30”x16”x16” sump. Pretty tragic for a reef tank this size.
But the real egregious error was that almost directly under the tank was a big storage room.
The first thing when I originally renovated the tank was open up the floor underneath to access that room. There were some minor twists and turns, so I ended up using flex PVC (not my fave), and lonand behold had a huge, and more importantly, somewhat cool room for filtration.
As I’ve talked about the next steps in reinventing the tank, the pendulum definitely swings in our favor with the LSS...or at least it’s potential.
And to @Sallstrom’s point about sometimes being OK using the ‘good enough’ principle, the current set-up is slightly enbarassing to me.
In looking at the actual aquarium footprint (70” x 36”), and the fact there is a substantial cabinet space under it, you wouldn’t think it would be possible to really screw it up. Then again, after seeing how they did everything else, you would have to assume they did.
You would be correct.
The first thing they did was (presumably as support) install a few sheets of plywood down the middle length of the tank, effectively cutting the available space in half (I’ll get a pic next week). Again, it was a from scratch build, so I have no idea why this was necessary. Then, all they could fit into the remaining space was a 30”x16”x16” sump. Pretty tragic for a reef tank this size.
But the real egregious error was that almost directly under the tank was a big storage room.
The first thing when I originally renovated the tank was open up the floor underneath to access that room. There were some minor twists and turns, so I ended up using flex PVC (not my fave), and lonand behold had a huge, and more importantly, somewhat cool room for filtration.
As I’ve talked about the next steps in reinventing the tank, the pendulum definitely swings in our favor with the LSS...or at least it’s potential.
And to @Sallstrom’s point about sometimes being OK using the ‘good enough’ principle, the current set-up is slightly enbarassing to me.
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Gregg @ ADP
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However, it can all be changed very easily.
I built the sump so that I would not have limitations.
Ignore how things are now. The original chiller (1hp) had a blow-out and started leaking coolant. At that point, I just patched in a Coralife chiller that I had lying around. Since we switched over to LEDs, we only need the chiller during the summer, so the little sub works fine. It actually only runs on the hottest days.
Now, the protein skimmer is sitting in the refugium chamber. Originally, above where the skimmer is, there was a 150 HQI pendant. I used to grow macro-algae like I was a farmer. Every 2 weeks I would take out at least a 5 gal bucket of it. I can’t remenber my reasoning for shutting the refugium down. Definitely going to fire it back up.
I only put the skimmer in that chamber because the skimmer I originally installed (a big fat Deltec) was in the other chamber when I subbed in the old EuroReef that you currently see. Sorry, Deltec guys...I love your stuff. But that thing is now in the junk pile:
I built the sump so that I would not have limitations.
Ignore how things are now. The original chiller (1hp) had a blow-out and started leaking coolant. At that point, I just patched in a Coralife chiller that I had lying around. Since we switched over to LEDs, we only need the chiller during the summer, so the little sub works fine. It actually only runs on the hottest days.
Now, the protein skimmer is sitting in the refugium chamber. Originally, above where the skimmer is, there was a 150 HQI pendant. I used to grow macro-algae like I was a farmer. Every 2 weeks I would take out at least a 5 gal bucket of it. I can’t remenber my reasoning for shutting the refugium down. Definitely going to fire it back up.
I only put the skimmer in that chamber because the skimmer I originally installed (a big fat Deltec) was in the other chamber when I subbed in the old EuroReef that you currently see. Sorry, Deltec guys...I love your stuff. But that thing is now in the junk pile:
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Sallstrom
2500 Club Member
However, it can all be changed very easily.
I built the sump so that I would not have limitations.
Ignore how things are now. The original chiller (1hp) had a blow-out and started leaking coolant. At that point, I just patched in a Coralife chiller that I had lying around. Since we switched over to LEDs, we only need the chiller during the summer, so the little sub works fine. It actually only runs on the hottest days.
Now, the protein skimmer is sitting in the refugium chamber. Originally, above where the skimmer is, there was a 150 HQI pendant. I used to grow macro-algae like I was a farmer. Every 2 weeks I would take out at least a 5 gal bucket of it. I can’t remenber my reasoning for shutting the refugium down. Definitely going to fire it back up.
I only put the skimmer in that chamber because the skimmer I originally installed (a big fat Deltec) was in the other chamber when I subbed in the old EuroReef that you currently see. Sorry, Deltec guys...I love your stuff. But that thing is now in the junk pile:
Ah, those black Deltec skimmers. We got at least five of those black one still running after more then 10 years. Many of the Eheim pumps still originals. Great stuff.
Sump doesn't look bad! And some room to do changes if needed. I agree on growing macroalgae, not sure they makes a big difference but I still like to include them somewhere in a reef tank system. It just feels good with the diversity.
About the tank, those back wall parts near the windows are really hard to make an interesting reef out of. Even with slim BTN background it's still very steep, hard to get any light down to the middle or bottom level. I'm not jealous.. Maybe a shady part with sun corals, but then you need to feed them and keep them happy. Not an easy task..
But I'll have another look at the pictures and your ideas again. I think you can create a great reef in this tank, it's not all bad with unusual shapes.
As for skimmers, maybe you don't need a large skimmer? If you could use the fall/height from the overflow, let that water pass over some kind of fast "drip tower", you'll get some aeration for free. An idea we might build into our new large systems, not something I've tried yet. Just a thought
SallyWho
Well-Known Member
Jesus, Mary, and two Josephs.....what in dear old mother earth possessed them to do THAT with that tank! It could have been situated so much better! No wonder it's a pain and a half to deal with!
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Gregg @ ADP
Valuable Member
The skimmer currently in the system is an old EuroReef. I hate to say it, because I love Deltec stuff, but the EuroReef outperforms the Deltec. Probably due to its height. Really good dwell time in that thing.Ah, those black Deltec skimmers. We got at least five of those black one still running after more then 10 years. Many of the Eheim pumps still originals. Great stuff.
Sump doesn't look bad! And some room to do changes if needed. I agree on growing macroalgae, not sure they makes a big difference but I still like to include them somewhere in a reef tank system. It just feels good with the diversity.
About the tank, those back wall parts near the windows are really hard to make an interesting reef out of. Even with slim BTN background it's still very steep, hard to get any light down to the middle or bottom level. I'm not jealous.. Maybe a shady part with sun corals, but then you need to feed them and keep them happy. Not an easy task..
But I'll have another look at the pictures and your ideas again. I think you can create a great reef in this tank, it's not all bad with unusual shapes.
As for skimmers, maybe you don't need a large skimmer? If you could use the fall/height from the overflow, let that water pass over some kind of fast "drip tower", you'll get some aeration for free. An idea we might build into our new large systems, not something I've tried yet. Just a thought
Today I got the go-ahead to do whatever I want in reinventing this tank (within $$$ reason). That might be a good thread to follow this one up with.
Step 1: before doing anything to the display, I want to tweak/redo the sump. I’m going to enlist R2R to give me some ideas on maxing the LSS our.
Specs on the sump- 2 36”x 24”x 30”
225 gal —> ~140 gal normal running vol
1st sump: 8” drain chamber w/built-in ‘shelf’ features, baffle 3” off bottom. 20” refugium chamber with flow-through panel. 8” chamber at end for whatever.
2nd sump: empty, made for skimmers, reactors, etc
Here’s the drain end of the sump:
The skimmer is moving back over to the other side. I plan to fire the refugium area back up, but I really want to maximize that drain chamber. Currently, I just throw chem media in there, but because water has to flow through that chamber to get anywhere else, it would be a good space to try some ideas out. The chem media is moving back into the reactor I have for it.
I was intrigued with @Lasse ‘s deep sand bed/plenum from his build, and thought about ways I could partition that drain chamber so that a portion of it could be a flow-through DSB, but in this case, the ‘S’ would stand for ‘sponge’ (and maybe some sand too). I’ve been thinking about layering progressively coarse —> fine materials in an 8”x 12” x 24” vertical column where one of the drains empties into the top and the water percolates down through all of this material and out the bottom.
I was also thinking about filling that extra 8” chamber after the refugium with live rock...mainly because I will have extra after I redo the display. But it would be cool to have that whole 36”x24”x30” space to culture whatever I want in an easily worked and controlled space.
I’m open to any and all suggestions.
One of my "possible options" with the construction of the DSB was to place it below the growing space of the refugium. The reason for this was whatever way of running the reversed flow (fast - aerobic sand bed; slow - anaerobic sand bed) - there will be a production of inorganic stuff in the sand bed (NH3/NH4, PO4 and CO2). Further on - some macro algae (caluerpa sp) have "rots" that recently have been shown to take up nutrient from the substrates as normal plant do).
In your case - you can easily use an idea from @Sallstrom in order to create a total controllable reversed flow DSB. You have the buffle 3 " over the bottom. Create a plenum on the backside of the second chamber. Let it be around 12 " wide and the length around 1 " shorter than the chamber (stop at least 1 " before the through-flow panel). Let it be open in the end facing the 3" opening. To lower the opening here to the same level as the plenums height can be wise, Build glass walls around the plenum - height 1-2 " below the rim of the chamber. Use the panel between chamber 1 - 2 and the backside of the chamber 2 as walls. You could even let the new apartment reach the through-flow panel - but in that case - you must take away the holes facing the new apartment. Now - fill with gravel of your choice to a depth of 6" to 8". Now you have create a chamber with opening for the plenum into the first chamber but isolated from the other chambers. When you fill upp the sump - the new apartment (chamber) will level up with the first three chambers trough the gap into the plenum. Place a pump in the new apartment (over the sand bed - pump water to the front part of the second chamber. The level in the new apartment (chamber) will be lower hence suck in water through the bottom gap between chamber 1 and the DSB chamber - forcing the water up trough the sand bed. Total controllable with the flow of the pump. If you want a fast flow (aerobic breakdown) use a controllable DC pump - if you want a slow flow - use a peristaltic pump. You can use the water over the DSB as an chaeto chamber as I do or grow whatever macro algae you want and the front part of the chamber 2 (the one you have now) you can use as an refugium too.
This is a rather unproven solution but I can´t see any problems with it. Make sure that you can measure the water below the plenum and that you can add some DOC into the sand bed if you need that.
Sincerely Lasse
In your case - you can easily use an idea from @Sallstrom in order to create a total controllable reversed flow DSB. You have the buffle 3 " over the bottom. Create a plenum on the backside of the second chamber. Let it be around 12 " wide and the length around 1 " shorter than the chamber (stop at least 1 " before the through-flow panel). Let it be open in the end facing the 3" opening. To lower the opening here to the same level as the plenums height can be wise, Build glass walls around the plenum - height 1-2 " below the rim of the chamber. Use the panel between chamber 1 - 2 and the backside of the chamber 2 as walls. You could even let the new apartment reach the through-flow panel - but in that case - you must take away the holes facing the new apartment. Now - fill with gravel of your choice to a depth of 6" to 8". Now you have create a chamber with opening for the plenum into the first chamber but isolated from the other chambers. When you fill upp the sump - the new apartment (chamber) will level up with the first three chambers trough the gap into the plenum. Place a pump in the new apartment (over the sand bed - pump water to the front part of the second chamber. The level in the new apartment (chamber) will be lower hence suck in water through the bottom gap between chamber 1 and the DSB chamber - forcing the water up trough the sand bed. Total controllable with the flow of the pump. If you want a fast flow (aerobic breakdown) use a controllable DC pump - if you want a slow flow - use a peristaltic pump. You can use the water over the DSB as an chaeto chamber as I do or grow whatever macro algae you want and the front part of the chamber 2 (the one you have now) you can use as an refugium too.
This is a rather unproven solution but I can´t see any problems with it. Make sure that you can measure the water below the plenum and that you can add some DOC into the sand bed if you need that.
Sincerely Lasse
Sallstrom
2500 Club Member
My first thought on this sump is to keep it easy. A DSB like @Lasse or a reverse sand bed like the one he describes above depends on a lot of pumps and controls, things that sooner or later brakes or needs to be checked and adjusted often. I assume you don't plan on moving in to this house?
One thing about the first chamber where the water falls down. We used Siporax in a Octopus vulgaris tank, let the water from the overflow fall into a box filled with Siporax. Pretty soon the first layer was grinded down and we got very high Si on the coming ICP test. So use a material that can handle a lot of flow and motion without being grinded down.
Most important planning this sump would be what level of bioload you are planning. What are the NO3 and PO4 levels right now? If you get the tanks working well you might not need more than a skimmer and some macro algae.
One thing about the first chamber where the water falls down. We used Siporax in a Octopus vulgaris tank, let the water from the overflow fall into a box filled with Siporax. Pretty soon the first layer was grinded down and we got very high Si on the coming ICP test. So use a material that can handle a lot of flow and motion without being grinded down.
Most important planning this sump would be what level of bioload you are planning. What are the NO3 and PO4 levels right now? If you get the tanks working well you might not need more than a skimmer and some macro algae.
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Gregg @ ADP
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High bio-load. All of my tanks are heavily loaded, because clients always want the best of all worlds (lot of fish, lot of coral, lot of everything). I don’t discourage it because a) I feel pretty confident in making it work, and b) I have bills to pay.My first thought on this sump is to keep it easy. A DSB like @Lasse or a reverse sand bed like the one he describes above depends on a lot of pumps and controls, things that sooner or later brakes or needs to be checked and adjusted often. I assume you don't plan on moving in to this house?
One thing about the first chamber where the water falls down. We used Siporax in a Octopus vulgaris tank, let the water from the overflow fall into a box filled with Siporax. Pretty soon the first layer was grinded down and we got very high Si on the coming ICP test. So use a material that can handle a lot of flow and motion without being grinded down.
Most important planning this sump would be what level of bioload you are planning. What are the NO3 and PO4 levels right now? If you get the tanks working well you might not need more than a skimmer and some macro algae.
My thinking on this particular tank is that once I gut the display, thin out the rock a bit, and build the aquascaping in a semi-permanent fashion, it will free up more time for science experiments downstairs.
I read through Lasse’s post but haven’t digested it (no coffee yet). But anything I do along the lines of getting crazy with the filter is going to be based on passive transport. If I have to hook up a pump to do something, I’m not doing it. So whatever I do will be designed around the normal flow of drain-to-pump intake...but still doing it in a way that water must flow through whatever I add.
I also have some curiosity about protein skimmer effluent. I’ve never bothered to look into it, but my assumption has always been that many of the larger hydrophobic macro-molecules have been stripped, but whatever free PO4 and NO3 would remain. I’m thinking of testing the effluent water to confirm.
If that is the case, I’m thinking about running the PS effluent back through whatever layered compartment or DSB I come up with.
I figure that since I have the space, design, time, and am getting paid to do it, I might as well experiment a bit. The goal is to have SPS dominant but with a lot of fish.
dantimdad
7500 Club Member
I have wondered in the past what difference it would make sending the skimmer output to a particular filtration media/section of a sump would do.
Now, I have someone to watch in case it all falls apart.
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Gregg @ ADP
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What do you think of this?
I can easily make a tower 60cm tall x 30cm x 16cm out of acrylic. Within this tower, there will be a few 1.5cm x1.5cm acrylic bars cemented on that will allow me to make shelves inside of it.
Water pours in the top, and I drill holes in the bottom 6cm. This allows (forces) water to through the tower and out the bottom.
The top layer would be coarse pad, with some less coarse pad under it, followed by sponge or fine pad. The top couple of layers are there to catch particulate and prevent the the subsequent layers from getting clogged up (and can be easily cleaned/maintained)
Middle layer- 6-10cm coarse substrate, sitting on top of the very coarse pad.
Bottom layer- 10-15 cm medium grain substrate —> small grain substrate on top of a final pad or sponge.
Bottom layer would be 6cm off bottom of filter. Holes drilled in acrylic along bottom of tower beneath bottom layer.
I could run any volume through I want, but it seems like maybe ~400 lph would be a good start.
Don’t you think that by the time that volume of water percolated through ~30cm of pads, sponges, and then coarse substrate that pretty much all the available O2 would have been used, and then the bottom 10-15cm of substrate would facilitate anaerobic activity?
I kind of want the bottom of the refugium to just be some fine substrate and then just let detritus from the tank settle in. I want to keep that ‘mud’ layer unencumbered, so I don’t want any rock on top of it. I can even install plastic grid baffles a couple of cm off the bottom to allow the macro-algae to anchor w/o anything actually being on the bottom. Extra live rock can be piled in the chamber downstream of the refugium chamber...for sponge growth, micro-inverts/detritivores, etc etc.
If you look at the pic of the sump, you can see that at one point I had made a 5cm hole between to two boxes. This height is approx where the current skimmer effluent line is. Thinking of running the effluent water back into the other side into...whatever. And I guess there is nothing stopping me from raising the skimmer off the bottom of the sump and then running some of the effluent back to the drain chamber and dump it into the bio chamber.
Thoughts?
alanbetiger
Active Member
Ya'll are way beyond me on this stuff. But I did see someone did similar to your acrylic box you're talking about. Except they put a solid piece down the middle and the outflow was higher up on the opposite side. So the water flowed in a a U-shape down and back up the other side to extend the "length" of anerobic area. I have no idea if that helps you.
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Gregg @ ADP
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I can see doing it like that as well. The benefit I have is that I have whatever vertical height I desire. This allows me to just rely on gravity to get the water through. I can foresee potential headaches once you have to force the water to go back up against gravity (given the low volume through required to really let the lower level go anaerobic)
Sallstrom
2500 Club Member
With a design like that I think you could tune the filter/bed with both flow rate and adding a carbon source(if you dilute it a lot you could dose small doses many times a day to get a more even addition).
I like the design. If you come up with a way to measure redox on the water out, you can use that for tuning. Would also be good to be able to take water samples for NO3 tests on out coming water.,
There's a thread somewhere here about controllable sand beds. Might be some good info and ideas there. I can post a link soon.
Edit. Here's the link:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/controllable-deep-sand-beds-a-discussion-thread.424449/
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Gregg @ ADP
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I haven’t thought much about the math on this, but what do you guys think of skimmer effluent water going into this bed, in terms of aerobic —> anaerobic?
My assumption is that [O2] of skimmer effluent would be significantly higher than ambient water. Higher (or maybe just more efficient) aerobic breakdown up top, but still enough surface area to flow through to strip that O2, right? Especially if I can just put a ‘t’ on the end of the effluent pipe and then a ball valve so that I can easily control volume into chamber.
Sallstrom
2500 Club Member
Now I got it! I first though you would feed the sand bed with skimmate(like Lasse does now and then)
If that's possible without having trouble with the water level inside the skimmer, that sounds like a good idea. If it's a better way compared to using water from the overflow I don't know. But I'm pretty sure @Lasse will have some ideas here.
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Gregg @ ADP
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It would be pretty easy for me to drip a little bit of skimmate into the bed.Now I got it! I first though you would feed the sand bed with skimmate(like Lasse does now and then)
If that's possible without having trouble with the water level inside the skimmer, that sounds like a good idea. If it's a better way compared to using water from the overflow I don't know. But I'm pretty sure @Lasse will have some ideas here.
My hope for the aerobic layer is that it also serves as a layer for other organisms (pods, worms, etc).
And should anybody think we’re getting a little carried away with some of this stuff, for me it’s all stuff that is going to work it’s way into my classroom.
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