How I Cipro

Reefing_addiction · Sep 22, 2020

Apoc68 said:
I am in the middle of treating a H. Magnifica that was in my tank for about a month and then began to decline.

I am treating in a 10 gallon and at day 5, I was doing some more reading and read a post about someone using a powerhead to blow water directly into the mouth and noticing a massive improvement the next day.

My nem was starting to improve after 5 days but progress was slow so I decided to try forcing the ABX water into the animal. I used an OLD, WORN HYDOR PICO for this. I can't stress enough how little water this powerhead moved. It was extremely gentle and I simply pointed it towards the mouth for about a minute.

I didn't blow the nem up like a balloon but it was a little more inflated when I was done.

The next day, I was surprised to see all signs of deflation were gone, mouth closed and it was inflated to nearly double the size of the night before. I believe that assisting the new in taking in the ABX treated water improved it's effectiveness but again, this powerhead was almost finished and was extremely gentle. If it was a larger one, it would probably do more harm than good.

You know what I wondered about soak food in cipro. My nem started to eat 5 days in. I thought about that but didn’t pull the trigger. Obviously there would be no way to know how much would be absorbed but I wonder if it could be beneficial

Apoc68 · Sep 22, 2020

dyerrm said:
You know what I wondered about soak food in cipro. My nem started to eat 5 days in. I thought about that but didn’t pull the trigger. Obviously there would be no way to know how much would be absorbed but I wonder if it could be beneficial

Feeding soaked food would probably provide better uptake of the medication but everything I've read says feeding can do more harm than so it may be a bit more of a gamble.

Using a powerhead to gently move medicated water into the nem may or may not provide any benefit at all but I don't see how it could do any harm.

Apoc68 · Sep 22, 2020

Just about ready to go into the display, I think. Under this daylight fixture it looks brown but under reef lighting it's got a purple base and purple tentacles with white tips.

Any suggestions for the most gentle way to get it off the glass? I had it in a coffee cup but it's too big to keep it from touching the glass in a ten gallon tank so it wouldn't stay attached to cup.

OrionN · Sep 24, 2020

It is easy to remove anemone from glass. Use a razor blade and scape it off the glass. Be careful not to cut the anemone but it cause no trauma to the anemone this way.

Apoc68 · Sep 24, 2020

Ok, will do. I've always used an old credit card in the past and was just curious if there was a way to encourage it to let go on it's own.

OrionN · Sep 24, 2020

Credit card is OK but razor blade, if you careful cause no damage at all. IMO the edge of the CC still blunted and does not get right in between the anemone and the glass. It still cause a little damage to the foot. You can feel it by feeling the tissue get left behind after you remove the anemone. There is still very thin layer of anemone foot on the glass. They heal well from it with no problem. Using a razor blade, all the anemone is gone from the glass. Nothing get leave behind.

Jeeperz · Sep 25, 2020

What my GF has done is use her fingers, takes a few minutes but they have always released without issue. I've never been that good.

On another note, both of my nems have inflated and stayed for a few days with inch or so long tentacles, about where they've always been.

Ernieaz1 · Feb 22, 2022

Amoo said:
Many of you have probably already seen this before as it's part of a sticky on another forum, but I'm moving the information over to this site as this is where I spend most of my time and want to link this in my Sig.

Amoo's Sick Nem Treatment Protocol:
Let me start by saying most of my research wouldn't exist without what OrionN (Mihn) started on rc years ago. Most all of my treatments have been done on H. Mag and BTAs so my experience applies in different areas. For the sake of this treatment I am only going to go over how I treat H. Mags from the time they arrive until they hopefully go into a DT. I've had good luck with not bleaching my nems and getting most of them to survive.

Medications:
While I am experimenting with other medications, the only drugs I am comfortable recommending at this point are the same basic ones Mihn uses. I get 500mg Ciprofloxacin (Cipro) tablets and 400mg/80mg Sulfamethoxazole and Trimethoprim (SMZ & TP) tablets. Individual dosing will be explained below.

Arrival:
Upon arrival of the Nem I immediately float the Nem bag, to acclimate it to tank temperature. This is done for 30 minutes. A clean 5 gallon bucket is then used and the contents of the bag are placed in the bucket. At this point I visually inspect the Nem for signs of damage and immediately give it a condition score. (I will explain the scoring system at the end of this article.) 9 times out of 10 I will drip acclimate the Nem for about 30-45 minutes before placing it in quarantine tank (QT). There have been times I have had a Nem arrive in such bad shape and water that I have immediately moved it to QT without drip acclimation. Note: This is not the preferred method, but as I buy almost all of my specimen from the same vendor I know what water params to setup my QT for (I still double check to ensure).

QT Setup:
My QT setup is slightly different then Mihn's so I will go into detail about it here. I choose to use a two tank approach. I believe in using two tanks because it allows me to fully clean EVERYTHING in the tank. As I am working with a smaller species I can afford to get away with two 10g tanks. Both tanks are equipped with a divider, heater (79F), power-head, fresh salt water, a coffee mug AND a cycled bio-wheel HOB filter. There is a full spectrum light (Par 38 14000K Full Spectrum Dimmable Reef Light (Coral Compulsion))with a manual dimmer hanging 12" above one tank at a time (I manually move it when I move the nem). Remember this is still a QT tank until we begin treatment.

My first order of business is to slowly begin light acclimating (12 hours with 10 hours of full light) the Nem and observe it. I will not start treatment for a minimum of 6-8 hours on a freshly shipped Nem. I first allow it time to adjust to the new tank conditions and lighting. If it has not shown any signs of improvement (scoring system) I will then begin treatment. Usually there is some improvement and I will give the Nem until the first lights out period to see if it continues to improve. Typically anything above a 5 and I start treatment after 6-8 hours. Anything below I let it ride until "sundown". Once I make the decision to start treatment (Tx), it immediately becomes lights out, I remove the Bio-wheel HOB and dose 250mg/10Gal of Cipro. I then give a strict 12 hours until further action is taken.

Treatment:
IMPORTANT: At the same time I dose the occupied tank with 250mg/10gal of Cipro I dose the second "empty" tank with Cipro as well.

After the first 12 hour, medicated lights out treatment, I immediately move the Nem to the second tank which already had it's HOB removed before dosing. I move the clamp light and begin it's light therapy for the day. At this point I tear down the first tank, take all components outside to clean and dry. Once dry, I bring everything back in and fill the tank with fresh SW and all of it's gadgets. Once it's time for complete lights out, I move the Nem again to this fresh tank and dose 250mg/10gal of Cipro, only to this tank this time.

Note: I feel the 12 hour water changes are important for the first day and a half, beyond that I allow a nem to remain in the same tank for 24 hours unless the tank becomes extremely cloudy.

Once through that first day, I have my second tank setup and ready to go by lights out and move the Nem over for his nightly Cipro dose. Prior to moving him is when I score him for the day. I maintain a 250mg/10gal dose of Cipro for the first 3 lights out periods regardless of score.

Increasing Dosage or Changing Medications:
After 3 lights out periods I check my pictures and scores and determine if my current treatment appears to be working. If he has come down 2-3 points from where he started, I continue on the same path. If he has not shown improvement or his score has increased I change my dosage. My first line of action is to increase the daily Cipro dosage to 500mg/10gal. This is again done for 3 lights out periods.

After three lights out periods I assess my pictures and notes and determine where to go from there. If things are improving I back off on my Cipro dose, back down to 250mg. If things are not improving, I still back down on my Cipro dose to 250mg but also add 400mg/80mg of SMZ & TP. Things are again maintained for 3 lights out periods.

If you're still reading, things aren't going well and it's probably decision time. Hopefully by this point your nem is close to a 2-3 at worst, but if it's still above 5 and hasn't shown significant improvement it's time to start really hitting it hard. If things are still bad I will double my dose of both Cipro to 500mg/10gal and SMZ & TP to 800mg/160mg. I do this for 3 lights out periods. Anything beyond this point with the Nem not improving significantly is still experimental and not something I'm ready to recommend yet.

Amoo's Severity Scoring System:

0 - Healthy Nem
1 - Tentacles shortened, still fully inflated, mouth tight, responsive to touch
2 - Tentacles shortened, still fully inflated, mouth slightly droopy, responsive to touch
3 - Tentacles shortened, still fully inflated, mouth slightly open, responsive to touch
4 - Tentacles shortened, still fully inflated, mouth open, responsive to touch
5 - Tentacles shortened, still fully inflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
6 - Tentacles shortened, partially inflates, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
7 - Tentacles shortened, inflates and deflates multiple times daily, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
8 - Tentacles shortened, most always deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, responsive to touch
9 - Tentacles shortened, always deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, barely responsive to touch
10 - Tentacles shortened, always deflated, mouth gaping open with insides exposed, non-responsive to touch
11 - Mush (Sorry )

So what if nems already in display tank are I'll. Will cipro work??? Will it kill all the good bacteria?

pecan2phat · Feb 23, 2022

Cipro is an antibiotic so it will probably wipe out your bacterial bed in a display.

Eagle_Steve · Feb 23, 2022

pecan2phat said:
Cipro is an antibiotic so it will probably wipe out your bacterial bed in a display.

This is not entirely true. See link below. Cipro has been dosed in DTs and the beneficial bacteria seems to be almost not affected by it. Granted, it is lower dosages that one doing it in a HT. I personally have dosed cirpo to about triple of what is in the below thread with no issues encountered in a fully mixed reef that had BJD and a mag that was sick after a split at the same time.

While I agree an HT is best for treating nems, if all cannot be removed, then looking into dosing for BJD is an option.

Experimenting with in-tank antibiotic treatments for Brown Jelly Disease

Brown Jelly Disease (BJD) is an issue many reefers have run into. Like most coral diseases, the pathogen causing BJD has not been conclusively determined. Here I will share some observations and test results supporting the idea that its caused by a bacterial pathogen, and so may be treatable...

www.reef2reef.com

pecan2phat · Feb 23, 2022

I've also dosed Cipro in an established hospital/holding tank and from my experience, it caused the tank to cycle. With my situation, it wasn't sudden but with Cipro use it's not a one time dose but multiple days.

wedward3 · Aug 28, 2022

I wanted to follow up on the status of my Heteractus magnifica that was saved following the methods and information laid out in this thread by Amoo and OrionN. I posted back in April 2020 covering the steps from the start through recovery of the anemone and I am grateful to say that it is still doing well to this day. It most certainly would not have survived the decline back in 2020 without following these procedures. I had not done my research and did not know what I was getting into but very happy it worked out for this anemone and it’s very possible Clarkii clownfish Toots. Thank you again on my behalf and their behalf.

MnFish1 · Jan 2, 2023

IMHO - there is no reason to use cipro in an aquarium - Pick a veterinary alternative. Though the resistance may still be induced - using an antibiotic - in your tank (routinely) - risks you and your family to resistant bacteria IMHO. (as a microbiologist).

vetteguy53081 · Jan 2, 2023

Agreeing with @MnFish1 , the article below said it all as i have not been thrilled with use of cipro:

Please STOP CIPROFLOXACIN DIPS and other antibiotics

It is surprisingly frequent the use of antibiotics on DIPs these days. Some users know me as a reefer only, but I am also a doctor. I will not enter the discussion on holobiont and why bacteria are important for the corals… But I would like to create a HUGE ALERT about dipping corals on...

www.reef2reef.com

Littlesquishy · Jan 28, 2023

After the third day of cipro, is the water change still 100%?

OrionN · Jan 28, 2023

Yes, Al the way until you stop dosing. Do the final water change 24 hrs after the last dose

naterealbig · Apr 19, 2023

@OrionN
@Amoo

I feel (a little) bad about necro'ing this thread, but have a sick Rock Flower 'Nem, and wanted pro advice. I have ordered Cipro, but am afraid it will be too late by the time it arrives.

Could i use Metronidozole (I have on hand) in a pinch to begin treatment until the Cipro arrives?

If so, use the normal (Metroplex) dosing recommendation?

Lastly, how critical is the QT/treatment tank lighting during the treatment period?

Thank you,

Nathan

Day before yesterday and yesterday.

And just now....

Rock nem in same container, right next to the sick one:

MnFish1 · Apr 19, 2023

naterealbig said:
@OrionN
@Amoo

I feel (a little) bad about necro'ing this thread, but have a sick Rock Flower 'Nem, and wanted pro advice. I have ordered Cipro, but am afraid it will be too late by the time it arrives.

Could i use Metronidozole (I have on hand) in a pinch to begin treatment until the Cipro arrives?

If so, use the normal (Metroplex) dosing recommendation?

Lastly, how critical is the QT/treatment tank lighting during the treatment period?

Thank you,

Nathan

Day before yesterday and yesterday.

And just now....

Rock nem in same container, right next to the sick one:

Metronidazole does not treat the same bacteria as cipro.