Indonesia Situation
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OP
OP
Quote from one of my suppliers:
"We are waiting for the permit to take the corals from our suppliers. Because it's also suspended by our government for domestic trading."
I asked for clarification; as of this moment they can not transport corals within the country. In other words, the exporters in the hub cites can not get corals from the collection sites, which are located some distance from the exporters.
"We are waiting for the permit to take the corals from our suppliers. Because it's also suspended by our government for domestic trading."
I asked for clarification; as of this moment they can not transport corals within the country. In other words, the exporters in the hub cites can not get corals from the collection sites, which are located some distance from the exporters.
Great video I am currently in Fiji. Walt Smith is 100% shut down at this time. Unfortunately the people of Fiji know nothing of this ban.Also the 2 government agents that deal with the environment and specifically waste water are far more interested in being paid that what is truly going on. Walt believes that the current government is involved a lot with the Paris climate accord. I sort of do too but things are very corrupt here also. I have spoken with many people and officials none and i mean none know anything about the ban. Makes me think this is a money thing. When i get back i am going to start a tread on in my opinion the sad state Fiji is in (with photos)
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Dr. Dendrostein
Marine fish monthly
One wholesaler emailed me, he has place an order to be delivered from Indonesia on 10/15, I hope it happens, the delivery.
Hope so let us know
Dr. Dendrostein
Marine fish monthly
Will do
OP
OP
Still seems quite confusing there. Some of the exporters say they have some stock on hand but can't acquire more from other regions because domestic shipments are still not allowed. Others tell me they still don't have health certificates being issued to be able to export. Updates are spotty, not sure if its because they just don't know yet or for other reasons. They are working on getting CITES permits first, then figuring out the rest as needed. CITES permits were never an issue, however no one wanted to apply for them during the shut down because they are valid for only 3 months and no one knew during the shut down when or if the ban would be lifted and they didn't want to be sutting on worthless permits so now there's a scramble to get permits which will likely lead to some delay since everyone wants them ASAP.
It's really a joke in my opinion. Corals are considered endangered animals (that's laughable in itself, but a whole different debate). There is an elaborate process of permits, fees, and inspections to be able to import them--all under the potential penalty of federal prison and fines. However, no one cares once the corals are in the US, they can be sold, kept, transported, etc. by anyone and without any permit or requirements. The process is top heavy on the acquisition side and could care less about the sustainability side. As far as the authorities know or care you could kill every one of the corals the moment after they enter the US and clear through all the inspections and no one cares. That aspect has always seemed very odd to me, it's nothing new, always been that way. Just odd. In my opinion there should be permits and inspections needed to buy and sell corals, if in fact they are going to consider them endangered animals. Wholesalers, retailers, all dealers should have minimum requirements and be inspected and have penalties involved if not properly handled, if corals are going to be called endangered.
It's really a joke in my opinion. Corals are considered endangered animals (that's laughable in itself, but a whole different debate). There is an elaborate process of permits, fees, and inspections to be able to import them--all under the potential penalty of federal prison and fines. However, no one cares once the corals are in the US, they can be sold, kept, transported, etc. by anyone and without any permit or requirements. The process is top heavy on the acquisition side and could care less about the sustainability side. As far as the authorities know or care you could kill every one of the corals the moment after they enter the US and clear through all the inspections and no one cares. That aspect has always seemed very odd to me, it's nothing new, always been that way. Just odd. In my opinion there should be permits and inspections needed to buy and sell corals, if in fact they are going to consider them endangered animals. Wholesalers, retailers, all dealers should have minimum requirements and be inspected and have penalties involved if not properly handled, if corals are going to be called endangered.
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OP
OP
Despite what we are seeing in other places and publications, all 6 of the companies I'm in contact with in Indonesia say they have not gotten an official statement that the ban is lifted. I've sent them a link to the RB article and their response has been:
" Correct, until now we didnt get any confirmation 100% accurate about re OPENING CORALS export"
So, now I'm thoroughly confused. I must say, the exporter's association has mishandled this from day one as far as from a PR standppint and keeping their members and the public informed!
" Correct, until now we didnt get any confirmation 100% accurate about re OPENING CORALS export"
So, now I'm thoroughly confused. I must say, the exporter's association has mishandled this from day one as far as from a PR standppint and keeping their members and the public informed!
OP
OP
It appears the first trial Guinea Pig shipment will happen Oct. 11 and then they will find out if HC will be issued and it can be exported.
Thank you for the update.
JaimeAdams
2500 Club Member
Looking forward to see what happens 11th.
Opus
2500 Club Member
Does anyone know the breakdown of coral exports to the rest of the world? Does the US get say 75% of the coral exports? I assume the US gets the majority but I've never heard a number.
OP
OP
Since we are all eagerly awaiting a final resolution about the export of corals from Indonesia, I thought it might be helpful to summarize the situation at least as far as I understand it, I'm by no means an expert on the subject, nor any subject.
First, the collection and export of corals from Indonesia is a complicated process that follows a tortuous path through numerous government agencies and other groups. I'll be quite honest, it's something I have never fully understood nor cared to dig into. In the past I would simply ask a supplier to get a CITES permit based upon my wish list of corals and they handled the rest, getting the permit based upon the quota they had available. When my shipments arrived in the US they came with a packet of documents and the US Fish & Wildlife Service inspector was interested in just the original CITES permit and all the rest of the mess of papers, including a health certificate my supplier forced me to pay for but was not needed to import into the US, got filed away never to be viewed again.
In May of this year, overnight our time, and without warning the export of corals stopped from Indonesia. It was explained to me that the health certificate that was not of any importance to bring the shipment into the US was indeed critical in Indonesia and the issuance of this document was halted and thus shut down exports. Unbeknownst to me the health certificates were needed to transport corals within Indonesia, for example from more remote coral farms or collection sites to the export hubs in Jakarta and Bali, and the health certificates were also necessary to be able to get a shipment on a plane to be able to export it out of the country. There was not an outright ban on exports since CITES permits were still being issued and only the health certificates were the issue. Also unbeknownst to me was that the head of the Maritime and Fisheries Ministry was responsible for issuing the health certificates and a lady named Susi that heads the Ministry wants to stop the export of corals, not only from Indonesia, but worldwide. Susi is a tough no nonsense lady that has taken extreme measures to control food fishing in Indonesian waters to the point of blowing up ships that violate Indonesia's territorial boundaries! She is an ardent environmentalist and feels our industry is not managing the resource correctly despite evidence and opinion from prominent people to the contrary. The export of cultured corals was stopped as well as wild collected corals and anemones. Despite the fact that there is a huge and well managed sustainable cultured coral industry in several parts of Indonesia that is endorsed by the government, everything came to a halt. The mariculture farms are so organized and multi-generational that I have their printed photo catalogs of corals I can buy according to species, size, color, etc.
The worldwide coral industry was devastated upon hearing the news of the shut down. The Indonesian coral exporters association was quick to declare that the word of a ban was fake news and some outlets published that word proudly. However, there was a ban, a deliberate stopping of issuance of the health certificates was in fact a ban on exports and in the 5 months since the action was taken many businesses in Indonesia and worldwide have been affected and some closed due to a lack of any income. The export association has in those months not communicated with the world and this left a void that was filled with rumor and anger.
Meetings were held in Indonesia to try to convince authorities that the few bad actors that caused the shut down were minor in the big picture of an industry that was responsible for lots of taxes being paid and jobs being lost. The pleas fell on deaf ears. The authorities had warned the industry long ago about it not following rules for handling the transport of corals within the country and a few continued to ignore the rules and were used as the excuse to shut it all down. The vast majority of good guys doing the right thing suffered because of a very few that wouldn't follow the rules.
In late September the industry plead it's case in front of the Parliament and despite none of the heads of the Ministries involved with the coral trade being present, the Parliament declared that the original order my a local Fisheries Ministry department to stop issuing health certificates was to be rescinded and that exports would immediately be allowed to flow again. However, Susi and the main Fisheries Ministry have not begun to issue health certificates yet. So, transport of corals within Indonesia and export out of Indonesia is still not possible. The industry association has been pressing for the issuance of health certificates based upon the declaration by the parliament and behind the scenes political pressures are involved I am told.
As of this moment no shipments have gone out, but most exporters feel they will be allowed soon. With an election coming next April many folks in the industry feel that this situation is quite fluid and even if exports are allowed now they soon they may not be following the election depending upon the results. There is cautious optimism for the moment, but still a sense of confusion and uncertainty.
Coral exports were banned from Fiji last December and that sitiation has not been resolved and no corals are coming out of there any time soon. It has been estimated that as much as 90% of the corals that had been available for sale in the US had been from either Fiji or Indonesia. Exports from Australia have filled the void. Because of a westernized economy in Australia the price of those corals is much higher than from Indonesia and Fiji. Some vendors feel that due to a worldwide shortage of supply that Aussie exporters have taken advantage and raised prices. Since I don't import much nowadays from Australia I haven't seen that with my supplies there. A small number of soft corals are also imported from Vietnam and a tiny number from the Caribbean. Currently, the only other source of corals has been Tonga. Corals have been exported from Tonga for decades. I imported corals from there over 20 years ago. There are beautiful corals there and many we don't commonly see in the hobby. However, currently the companys doing exports are poorly managed and the corals are very inconsistent in quality and desirability. No mariculture is done there except for some clams done by the government and sold to exporters. So, in the meantime coral farms such as mine and others and individual hobbyists have redoubled our propagation efforts. New corals are needed to add diversity because hobbyists are always wanting something new and different. Being able to sustainably and profitably grow corals in captivity means prices will rise compared with bringing in wild collected colonies and chopping them up. Most hobbyists are not ready yet to bear that cost as evidenced by their reluctance to pay higher prices at swaps or other outlets. Some have thought the complete shut down of imports would be a good thing in an effort to save the wild reefs and that given no other choices hobbyists would bear the burden of inevitability higher costs. The average hobbyist does not realize the impact that wild collected or maricultured imports have on the availability and cost of their desired frag.
So, the bottom line is that as of this moment no exports from Indonesia are flowing, but are expected soon. Some rumors are that a trial shipment is planned for Oct. 11 and we will see if the health certificate is issued and the shipment is allowed out. Being a coral importer and vendor is always a difficult thing because we are dealing with a perishable product that is expensive and delicate. Many tens of thousands of dollars are invested in every large shipment. Most of that cost is in freight and all the many other miscellaneous fees. The cost of the actual animal is almost insignificant compared with freight and all the others costs and none of those are refundable. It's a risky business and add to it the uncertainties of export and import problems plus the fact that behind it all is the Lacey Act, that is the law controlling imports of endangered animals into the US. Violations of the Lacey Act are aggressively prosecuted and federal prison time and fines are had by those that violate the rules.
So, now you get a small and incomplete picture of the trials and tribulations of what it takes to bring you that $5 swap frag
I have set up mariculture farms in sereral locations in the world and have a state licensed coral aquaculture facility in Maryland and have been in business for 20 years and invloved the this industry since 1965. This by no means makes me an expert nor any different from any other passionate hobbyist, just giving you my limited perspective and thoughts, take them as you wish. To be perfectly honest after many decades in this industry and dealing with all the hype and oversized egos over the years, I'm not particularly interested in debating the issues at hand any longer, I guess I'm just an old curmudgeon
First, the collection and export of corals from Indonesia is a complicated process that follows a tortuous path through numerous government agencies and other groups. I'll be quite honest, it's something I have never fully understood nor cared to dig into. In the past I would simply ask a supplier to get a CITES permit based upon my wish list of corals and they handled the rest, getting the permit based upon the quota they had available. When my shipments arrived in the US they came with a packet of documents and the US Fish & Wildlife Service inspector was interested in just the original CITES permit and all the rest of the mess of papers, including a health certificate my supplier forced me to pay for but was not needed to import into the US, got filed away never to be viewed again.
In May of this year, overnight our time, and without warning the export of corals stopped from Indonesia. It was explained to me that the health certificate that was not of any importance to bring the shipment into the US was indeed critical in Indonesia and the issuance of this document was halted and thus shut down exports. Unbeknownst to me the health certificates were needed to transport corals within Indonesia, for example from more remote coral farms or collection sites to the export hubs in Jakarta and Bali, and the health certificates were also necessary to be able to get a shipment on a plane to be able to export it out of the country. There was not an outright ban on exports since CITES permits were still being issued and only the health certificates were the issue. Also unbeknownst to me was that the head of the Maritime and Fisheries Ministry was responsible for issuing the health certificates and a lady named Susi that heads the Ministry wants to stop the export of corals, not only from Indonesia, but worldwide. Susi is a tough no nonsense lady that has taken extreme measures to control food fishing in Indonesian waters to the point of blowing up ships that violate Indonesia's territorial boundaries! She is an ardent environmentalist and feels our industry is not managing the resource correctly despite evidence and opinion from prominent people to the contrary. The export of cultured corals was stopped as well as wild collected corals and anemones. Despite the fact that there is a huge and well managed sustainable cultured coral industry in several parts of Indonesia that is endorsed by the government, everything came to a halt. The mariculture farms are so organized and multi-generational that I have their printed photo catalogs of corals I can buy according to species, size, color, etc.
The worldwide coral industry was devastated upon hearing the news of the shut down. The Indonesian coral exporters association was quick to declare that the word of a ban was fake news and some outlets published that word proudly. However, there was a ban, a deliberate stopping of issuance of the health certificates was in fact a ban on exports and in the 5 months since the action was taken many businesses in Indonesia and worldwide have been affected and some closed due to a lack of any income. The export association has in those months not communicated with the world and this left a void that was filled with rumor and anger.
Meetings were held in Indonesia to try to convince authorities that the few bad actors that caused the shut down were minor in the big picture of an industry that was responsible for lots of taxes being paid and jobs being lost. The pleas fell on deaf ears. The authorities had warned the industry long ago about it not following rules for handling the transport of corals within the country and a few continued to ignore the rules and were used as the excuse to shut it all down. The vast majority of good guys doing the right thing suffered because of a very few that wouldn't follow the rules.
In late September the industry plead it's case in front of the Parliament and despite none of the heads of the Ministries involved with the coral trade being present, the Parliament declared that the original order my a local Fisheries Ministry department to stop issuing health certificates was to be rescinded and that exports would immediately be allowed to flow again. However, Susi and the main Fisheries Ministry have not begun to issue health certificates yet. So, transport of corals within Indonesia and export out of Indonesia is still not possible. The industry association has been pressing for the issuance of health certificates based upon the declaration by the parliament and behind the scenes political pressures are involved I am told.
As of this moment no shipments have gone out, but most exporters feel they will be allowed soon. With an election coming next April many folks in the industry feel that this situation is quite fluid and even if exports are allowed now they soon they may not be following the election depending upon the results. There is cautious optimism for the moment, but still a sense of confusion and uncertainty.
Coral exports were banned from Fiji last December and that sitiation has not been resolved and no corals are coming out of there any time soon. It has been estimated that as much as 90% of the corals that had been available for sale in the US had been from either Fiji or Indonesia. Exports from Australia have filled the void. Because of a westernized economy in Australia the price of those corals is much higher than from Indonesia and Fiji. Some vendors feel that due to a worldwide shortage of supply that Aussie exporters have taken advantage and raised prices. Since I don't import much nowadays from Australia I haven't seen that with my supplies there. A small number of soft corals are also imported from Vietnam and a tiny number from the Caribbean. Currently, the only other source of corals has been Tonga. Corals have been exported from Tonga for decades. I imported corals from there over 20 years ago. There are beautiful corals there and many we don't commonly see in the hobby. However, currently the companys doing exports are poorly managed and the corals are very inconsistent in quality and desirability. No mariculture is done there except for some clams done by the government and sold to exporters. So, in the meantime coral farms such as mine and others and individual hobbyists have redoubled our propagation efforts. New corals are needed to add diversity because hobbyists are always wanting something new and different. Being able to sustainably and profitably grow corals in captivity means prices will rise compared with bringing in wild collected colonies and chopping them up. Most hobbyists are not ready yet to bear that cost as evidenced by their reluctance to pay higher prices at swaps or other outlets. Some have thought the complete shut down of imports would be a good thing in an effort to save the wild reefs and that given no other choices hobbyists would bear the burden of inevitability higher costs. The average hobbyist does not realize the impact that wild collected or maricultured imports have on the availability and cost of their desired frag.
So, the bottom line is that as of this moment no exports from Indonesia are flowing, but are expected soon. Some rumors are that a trial shipment is planned for Oct. 11 and we will see if the health certificate is issued and the shipment is allowed out. Being a coral importer and vendor is always a difficult thing because we are dealing with a perishable product that is expensive and delicate. Many tens of thousands of dollars are invested in every large shipment. Most of that cost is in freight and all the many other miscellaneous fees. The cost of the actual animal is almost insignificant compared with freight and all the others costs and none of those are refundable. It's a risky business and add to it the uncertainties of export and import problems plus the fact that behind it all is the Lacey Act, that is the law controlling imports of endangered animals into the US. Violations of the Lacey Act are aggressively prosecuted and federal prison time and fines are had by those that violate the rules.
So, now you get a small and incomplete picture of the trials and tribulations of what it takes to bring you that $5 swap frag
I have set up mariculture farms in sereral locations in the world and have a state licensed coral aquaculture facility in Maryland and have been in business for 20 years and invloved the this industry since 1965. This by no means makes me an expert nor any different from any other passionate hobbyist, just giving you my limited perspective and thoughts, take them as you wish. To be perfectly honest after many decades in this industry and dealing with all the hype and oversized egos over the years, I'm not particularly interested in debating the issues at hand any longer, I guess I'm just an old curmudgeon
Susi, yea I have heard of her and her antics.
Basically it is the same with Hawaii with Rene Umberger and the shut down of fish exports.
These people get themselves elected into the right position and can make this stuff happen.
People do not get that this hobby could end on a dime. One person in the right place proposes the right bill.
Basically it is the same with Hawaii with Rene Umberger and the shut down of fish exports.
These people get themselves elected into the right position and can make this stuff happen.
People do not get that this hobby could end on a dime. One person in the right place proposes the right bill.
Was doing some research on Susi Pudjiastuti wow she is a real piece of work.
She will not quit till the collection of corals is stopped. Eventually she will get her way just like Rene Umberger did in Hawaii.
Susi is way worse too..
It is funny to me how one person can stop thousands.
What these people do not get is we are not the enemy we want the same thing, well most of us. we also want the reefs to survive .
She will not quit till the collection of corals is stopped. Eventually she will get her way just like Rene Umberger did in Hawaii.
Susi is way worse too..
It is funny to me how one person can stop thousands.
What these people do not get is we are not the enemy we want the same thing, well most of us. we also want the reefs to survive .
JUNICHI YAMASAKI
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October 11 passed.
Indonesia?
Did a health certificate appear?
Indonesia?
Did a health certificate appear?
OP
OP
Word is that the shipment was rejected by quarantine at the airport. I don't have too much solid info on it at this moment. 12 hour time difference so I won't get much until our overnight tonight.
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Would this be due to the health certificates or for another reason yet to be announced? Thanks again for all your input on this matter, you’ve really helped shine some light on what’s going on.
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