Introducing the Oceamo Organo-MS Analysis

[Mattiejay6]

Is moonshiners still requiring stores to buy all of the trace elements before even getting wholesale on your icps? Personally would love to use oceamo but have no interest in dealing with Andre. Apparently other places dont either, very hard to get your test in the US because of moonshiners.

Seems like that would be a question for Andre on wholesale inquiry. It’s not hard to get the test, from your post it’s a choice to not purchase it.

 

[Christoph]

Hi all,
I'd like this thread to focus on discussing Organo-MS, its capabilities, and the value it can bring to the reefing hobby. The goal here isn't to dive into distribution details, but rather to highlight what this analysis offers.

Organo-MS is available in the U.S. — at a very reasonable price, in my opinion — with excellent logistics ensuring fast turnaround times. Let's talk about how this tool can support reefers in better understanding and maintaining their systems.

Getting back to the science — I’d like to highlight a few more amino acids that are now routinely quantified with Organo-MS:

• Glycine: The smallest of the proteinogenic amino acids. It's typically found at higher concentrations in seawater compared to others
• Ornithine: A “smaller cousin” of lysine and classified as a basic amino acid. While it's non-proteinogenic, some studies report surprisingly high concentrations of ornithine in natural seawater.
• Taurine: Quite different from typical amino acids, taurine is actually a sulfonic acid rather than a carboxylic one. It's non-proteinogenic but commonly found in reef tanks. However, we still need to better understand what levels are considered ideal — and whether elevated taurine could be a sign of underlying issues.

These compounds add another layer of insight into reef chemistry and system health, and it's exciting to be able to measure them. Amino acids are very sensitive on our method, so we do still get some signal at the single digit nanogramm per liter (ng/l) concentration level for most amino acids.

All the best,
Christoph

 

[t5Nitro]

via ReefMoonshiners - RM is or distributor in the US and also handles sample returns. Turnaround is rather quick from the US, usually 6-8 days.


All the best, Christoph

My oceamo ICP came with a label that goes to Texas. Is this the same quality analysis you run or would you buy direct?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

• Glycine: The smallest of the proteinogenic amino acids. It's typically found at higher concentrations in seawater compared to others
• Ornithine: A “smaller cousin” of lysine and classified as a basic amino acid. While it's non-proteinogenic, some studies report surprisingly high concentrations of ornithine in natural seawater.
• Taurine: Quite different from typical amino acids, taurine is actually a sulfonic acid rather than a carboxylic one. It's non-proteinogenic but commonly found in reef tanks. However, we still need to better understand what levels are considered ideal — and whether elevated taurine could be a sign of underlying issues.

Thank you, Christoph.

Not sure if you have enough info from users or data to answer, but one question is whether folks dosing amino acids have higher levels in the water.

 

[Christoph]

My oceamo ICP came with a label that goes to Texas. Is this the same quality analysis you run or would you buy direct?

Thats the collecting point in Texas, from there samples are forwarded to us in Austria, so all is good :) However you are likely holding a ICP test in hands, not the Organo-MS that is discussed in this thread.

all the best, Christoph

 

[RoanokeReef]

Just tossing this out there, would love to use your tests but besides moonshiners there is no other place I found in the US.

 

[Gribbles]

Hi all,
I'd like this thread to focus on discussing Organo-MS, its capabilities, and the value it can bring to the reefing hobby. The goal here isn't to dive into distribution details, but rather to highlight what this analysis offers.

Organo-MS is available in the U.S. — at a very reasonable price, in my opinion — with excellent logistics ensuring fast turnaround times. Let's talk about how this tool can support reefers in better understanding and maintaining their systems.

Getting back to the science — I’d like to highlight a few more amino acids that are now routinely quantified with Organo-MS:

• Glycine: The smallest of the proteinogenic amino acids. It's typically found at higher concentrations in seawater compared to others
• Ornithine: A “smaller cousin” of lysine and classified as a basic amino acid. While it's non-proteinogenic, some studies report surprisingly high concentrations of ornithine in natural seawater.
• Taurine: Quite different from typical amino acids, taurine is actually a sulfonic acid rather than a carboxylic one. It's non-proteinogenic but commonly found in reef tanks. However, we still need to better understand what levels are considered ideal — and whether elevated taurine could be a sign of underlying issues.

These compounds add another layer of insight into reef chemistry and system health, and it's exciting to be able to measure them. Amino acids are very sensitive on our method, so we do still get some signal at the single digit nanogramm per liter (ng/l) concentration level for most amino acids.

All the best,
Christoph

I get your point, but I hope you also understand some of us are choosing to "vote with our wallet" and won't purchase from RM and Andre.

 

[fandaga]

Pretty cool offering! I do have some questions since i also have an orbitrap, as well as other MS instruments, in my lab. (By the way, I perform pharmaceutical analysis and thus nothing to do with testing seawater)

The MS response factors of these compounds vary considerably and may not be linear over such a large range. Do you have individual standards for each of these components at different levels?

Are you doing this by MS/MS? Is this LC-MS or direct inject? Also do you need to do any solid phase or liquid extraction? I’d imagine the matrix effects could be pretty significant.

You mentioned glycine, which I think would actually be rather difficult since its mass is low and may have a lot of interference. What kind of sensitivity are you seeing for that analyte?

Have you demonstrated the accuracy and precision of the method for each of the analytes?

Finally, any plans to publish your method?

 

[Christoph]

Pretty cool offering! I do have some questions since i also have an orbitrap, as well as other MS instruments, in my lab. (By the way, I perform pharmaceutical analysis and thus nothing to do with testing seawater)

Hi,
great to see someone from the field and very pinpointed questions here! I guess youre running a bunch of QQQs alongside the HR instrument? Are you in impurity testing/profiling of pharmaceuticals? Would be great to hear more about your field of application of MS.

The MS response factors of these compounds vary considerably and may not be linear over such a large range. Do you have individual standards for each of these components at different levels?

We have two sections in the report. The "targeted section" includes compounds for which we have standards and perform calibration. In this section, we report concentration levels in ppb.


The second section is "non-targeted", which lists unexpected compounds identified based on MS2 database matches. For these, we report only signal counts (or area) and not concentration levels, due to the unknown ionization efficiency. However, we still provide the counts to allow for relative comparisons between different samples or time points.

Are you doing this by MS/MS? Is this LC-MS or direct inject? Also do you need to do any solid phase or liquid extraction? I’d imagine the matrix effects could be pretty significant.

We perform LC-MS analysis, with each sample injected four times using different chromatographic conditions and scan parameters. As you know, not all compounds respond well under a single set of conditions. We haven’t attempted direct injection with seawater, due to its matrix - this would just be asking for trouble.

We are running full scans along with data-dependent MS2 (dd-MS2) for both confirmation and unknown compound screening.

You mentioned glycine, which I think would actually be rather difficult since its mass is low and may have a lot of interference. What kind of sensitivity are you seeing for that analyte?

Amino acids are generally challenging to analyze—many exhibit poor ionization, even those that retain on the column for a reasonable duration. To address this, we developed an in-house protocol specifically for amino acids in seawater. It involves pre-column chemical modification to enhance both retention and, significantly, ionization efficiency. Please understand i cannot disclose further details here.

Have you demonstrated the accuracy and precision of the method for each of the analytes?

We verify our methods using system suitability tests (SSTs) and closely monitor blanks and linearity, which provides strong assurance of method performance. Additionally, applying narrow mass accuracy windows, retention time tolerances, and MS2 confirmation further increases confidence in our results. However, we do not perform full-scale method validation as required under GMP or pharmaceutical standards.

Finally, any plans to publish your method?

We don’t currently plan to publish the methodology, as it doesn’t seem particularly meaningful on its own. However, we expect that over time, the accumulated data will lead to publishable insights. For example, mass spectrometric analysis of palytoxin is a particularly intriguing area, along with several other marine toxins. There’s still a great deal to explore and learn in this field.

All the best from Austria,
Christoph

 

[fandaga]

Great, the science sounds pretty solid! I really appreciate that you’re pushing the field forward. I’ll definitely consider sending some samples in.

Actually, I just move some zoas this weekend and was wondering how much, if any, palytoxin was released. Fortunately, I didn’t see any negative impact. But that might have been interesting.

I didn’t think about the LC retention of amino acids. Derivatization makes a lot sense. I guess you’re doing something like Marfey’s, which I actually perform at work for chiral analysis of amino acids.

At the moment, I don’t have a triple quad, but I’ve developed methods and published papers using one in the past. Actually, the last one was on ppb detection of EDTA that we published in Analytical Chemistry a few years ago. Right now, my lab has 3 orbitraps (2 QEs and a tribrid) and several QToFs (G2se, Agilent IM-QToF, and a TIMS-ToF). We mostly do structure elucidation rather than quantitation. I also do a lot of NMR work…

 

[Christoph]

Thanks, quite an impressive machine park there ;-) I used to do quite some NMR back in the OrgSyn lab.

If you dont mind, please PM me the paper regarding your EDTA work. Since chelators are frequently applied in different products, they would be intersting to quantify aswell. I guess that EDTA that enters seawater will likely be present as Ca or Mg-EDTA, would be interesting what ESI does to these complexes.

All the best,
Christoph

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, quite an impressive machine park there ;-) I used to do quite some NMR back in the OrgSyn lab.

If you dont mind, please PM me the paper regarding your EDTA work. Since chelators are frequently applied in different products, they would be intersting to quantify aswell. I guess that EDTA that enters seawater will likely be present as Ca or Mg-EDTA, would be interesting what ESI does to these complexes.

All the best,
Christoph

I agree that EDTA and other chelators would be interesting. Many trace additives may contain them, and even some calcium additives may.

 

[fandaga]

Thanks, quite an impressive machine park there ;-) I used to do quite some NMR back in the OrgSyn lab.

If you dont mind, please PM me the paper regarding your EDTA work. Since chelators are frequently applied in different products, they would be intersting to quantify aswell. I guess that EDTA that enters seawater will likely be present as Ca or Mg-EDTA, would be interesting what ESI does to these complexes.

All the best,
Christoph

Sure, PM sent with the paper. Unfortunately the method can’t be used for speciation of EDTA-Ca versus EDTA-Mg. I had to derivatize EDTA to its methyl ester to hit the detection limits. The speciation would be pretty hard. Off the top of my head, I don’t know how to pull that off at a useable detection limit…maybe post column derivatization would work.

 

[ryshark]

Any chance of getting another/different US distributor?

If it was available at Amazon, pretty sure there would be a significant spike in kits sold.

 

[Arkayology]

This is a very cool and potentially useful test for our tanks. My question is that we learn what is/isn't in our water. Great, but then what? Do we just do water changes to remove things like medications/toxins? Drop in some medication absorbing material? Couldn't I just do that proactively?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is a very cool and potentially useful test for our tanks. My question is that we learn what is/isn't in our water. Great, but then what? Do we just do water changes to remove things like medications/toxins? Drop in some medication absorbing material? Couldn't I just do that proactively?

I expect there will be an ongoing learning curve, exactly like figuring out what inorganics (e.g., calcium, copper) are in seawater and which are desirable and undesirable at different levels.

It is not just abut toxins, and even within the world of toxins, how they are removed without removing desirable things will depend on what is actually found. In many cases, removing the source may make more sense than trying to remove a single organic, for example.

Likewise, the levels of things like amino acids may be desirable to understand in relation to what works well and what goes wrong to boost pests and hurt things we want to keep. A lot of pest "science" is pretty black box right now.

I don't think that in advance anyone can be sure what benefits (if any) might come from the technology, but here's one example that I discussed with Christoph:

The chemical form of some toxic materials (say, tin or copper) can have a big impact on its toxicity and/or bioavailability. ICP gives no such information. A fellow reefer saying 19 ppb tin or copper killed his prized acro may have no bearing on your measured level of 19 ppb if yours is a different chemical form. The measurement of EDTA or actual organotin compounds would have bearing here.

I'm not suggesting folks should all run out and get a test because it will improve your reef. If you want to understand deeper what is taking place in your tank, if you want to get a baseline for future comparison, or if you want to try to see if there is any information that might be gleaned about a current problem, then it might be worthwhile.

Once my tank has been up long enough to reach some sort of semi-equilibrium (it is currently on day 76), then I'll probably get such a test. Maybe at the one year point. If I had the technology at home, I'd test it once a month to see how things changed over time. :)

 

[Arkayology]

I expect there will be an ongoing learning curve, exactly like figuring out what inorganics (e.g., calcium, copper) are in seawater and which are desirable and undesirable at different levels.

It is not just abut toxins, and even within the world of toxins, how they are removed without removing desirable things will depend on what is actually found. In many cases, removing the source may make more sense than trying to remove a single organic, for example.

Likewise, the levels of things like amino acids may be desirable to understand in relation to what works well and what goes wrong to boost pests and hurt things we want to keep. A lot of pest "science" is pretty black box right now.

I don't think that in advance anyone can be sure what benefits (if any) might come from the technology, but here's one example that I discussed with Christoph:

The chemical form of some toxic materials (say, tin or copper) can have a big impact on its toxicity and/or bioavailability. ICP gives no such information. A fellow reefer saying 19 ppb tin or copper killed his prized acro may have no bearing on your measured level of 19 ppb if yours is a different chemical form. The measurement of EDTA or actual organotin compounds would have bearing here.

I'm not suggesting folks should all run out and get a test because it will improve your reef. If you want to understand deeper what is taking place in your tank, if you want to get a baseline for future comparison, or if you want to try to see if there is any information that might be gleaned about a current problem, then it might be worthwhile.

Once my tank has been up long enough to reach some sort of semi-equilibrium (it is currently on day 76), then I'll probably get such a test. Maybe at the one year point. If I had the technology at home, I'd test it once a month to see how things changed over time. :)

Thanks, Randy. This is pretty much what I was thinking. I hope we move more in this direction where we can test for some toxins, aminos, etc. and get a recommendation of what to do and more fully understand how these particular organics/inorganics interact.

 

[fandaga]

I have a lot of questions that could be answered by LC-MS. Allelopathic relationships are really cool. It’s fascinating what chemicals corals, particularly soft corals, use to signal and outcompete each other. For example, a class of diterpenoids, lobocrassins, are known to be cytotoxic and released by lobophytums. There are plenty of papers on these topics, but wouldn’t it be neat to see what is going on in your particular tank?

 

[chema]

Congratulations Christoph! This is great news for reefers and I'm sure it'll open new venues for our knowledge of what is going on in our reef systems.

In my case I have been dealing for a long time with LTN in some acros (not all of them). I have discarded any chemical unbalance and it would be very interesting to chech whether there may be a toxic compound in my reef.

 

[Christoph]

This is a very cool and potentially useful test for our tanks. My question is that we learn what is/isn't in our water. Great, but then what? Do we just do water changes to remove things like medications/toxins? Drop in some medication absorbing material? Couldn't I just do that proactively?

In my opinion there is many aspects the results can be useful, for example:

• Understand Medication Stability: Learn how stable medications are in your tank environment. This can help refine dosing intervals, reduce waste, and improve treatment effectiveness.
• Discover Active Metabolites: Find out what these medications break down into. Are any of the byproducts active—or potentially harmful?
• Identify Harmful Contaminants: Uncover hidden sources of contamination. Using tools like ICP, we've already identified unwanted elements introduced through various sources—such as antimony from specific UV units or tin from certain tubing. This kind of insight leads to better product choices and ultimately improves tank safety. Organo-MS will expand this even further, covering a much broader range of compounds.
• Track Environmental Transfer: Ever wonder if personal care products like medications or sunscreens are making their way into your tank, potentially causing effects? In several cases, we've already confirmed this. Such findings raise awareness and often lead to simple behavioral changes—like wearing gloves when handling tank equipment.
• Monitor Amino Acids and Vitamins: Gain insight into levels of amino acids and vitamins. Is supplementation necessary? Could imbalances be linked to ongoing tank issues? Certainly a lot to learn here.

And there are for sure many more...

I have a lot of questions that could be answered by LC-MS. Allelopathic relationships are really cool. It’s fascinating what chemicals corals, particularly soft corals, use to signal and outcompete each other. For example, a class of diterpenoids, lobocrassins, are known to be cytotoxic and released by lobophytums. There are plenty of papers on these topics, but wouldn’t it be neat to see what is going on in your particular tank?

Lobocrassins are for sure interesting! Unfortunately i could not find any commercially available reference compounds yet. We can screen if we see the exact mass in any of the samples we have measured so far.


all the best,
Christoph