Introducing the Oceamo Organo-MS Analysis

[Marc Pardon]

Count me in for an organo test with my next order. I have still 2 oceamo MS test available. I will notify in the organo sample that I have a macro algae refugium. I am curious about my baseline related to other reef tanks . Aspatic and glutamic acid could be algae related perhaps but could also be from feeding seaweed/nori/related food I guess......

source : https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ercentage-of-total-amino-acids_tbl1_350236396

 

[Lasse]

@Christoph : does a analyse of reef tank with a refugium (macro algae) looks very different from a analyse from a reef tank without regarding AA?

I cant tell unfortunately. We do not ask if a refugium is used in the Organo-MS sample submission. Would be an interesting point to add.

With amino acids we usually see quite low number with the exception of aspatic and glutamic acid, which are sometimes unexpectedly high. The evaluation of the amino acid results is difficult terrain - the consumption is rapid, outcome of the analysis depends significantly on the time gap between dosing and taking the sampling, so its best to stick to a sampling routine to make results for amino acids most compareable.

All the best, Christoph

FYI - I have a small refugium in my tank - just prior my sample point - the downstream flow is DT (270 L) -> refugium (35 L) -> overflow chamber (14 L) -> skimmer apartment (30 L) -> sample point is in the outflow from skimmer apartment -> the return chamber (20 L) - DT. Flow through the whole system - 1 500 L/H

My Oxidator (givining some H2O2 inro the water) is placed in the skimmer apartment (Sample point is placed downstream the oxidator

The skimmer apartment is around the same volume and run through - the skimmers water flow is 1500 - 2000 L/H

This means that I hav two technical tools that theoretical could decrease amino acid concentration produced in the refugium between the refugium and the sample point. Next time I sample - I maybe should do it directly after the refugium ?

One thought about the plasticisers - I use the plastic syringe from the sample package and I followed the instructions for use.

@Christoph has you investigate if the brand of plastic syringe and sample tubes you use can leak any of those plasticisers your test report?

Sorry if this come in the wrong thread - it maybe should be here

Sincerely Lasse

 

[EnterName]

Hi @Christoph,

Sorry if this has been asked before, I wasn't able to find an answer while skimming over the comments:

1. Your analysis shows low/normal/elevated ratings for various substances like amino acids. How do you determine which levels are considered "too low" or "too high"?

2. Do we know whether corals can actually absorb these substances in the specific forms your test detects? For instance, could it be that certain amino acids are only taken up when bound to larger food particles through the coral's digestive process, meaning that the dissolved or free forms measured by your test might not be directly usable for them?


I realize these questions sound a bit "skeptical", but I genuinely love what you're doing. Having this kind of data available is absolutely awesome, and I hope it will improve our understanding of what's going on in our tanks.

Just ordered my first Organo-MS analysis!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi @Christoph,

Sorry if this has been asked before, I wasn't able to find an answer while skimming over the comments:

1. Your analysis shows low/normal/elevated ratings for various substances like amino acids. How do you determine which levels are considered "too low" or "too high"?

2. Do we know whether corals can actually absorb these substances in the specific forms your test detects? For instance, could it be that certain amino acids are only taken up when bound to larger food particles through the coral's digestive process, meaning that the dissolved or free forms measured by your test might not be directly usable for them?


I realize these questions sound a bit "skeptical", but I genuinely love what you're doing. Having this kind of data available is absolutely awesome, and I hope it will improve our understanding of what's going on in our tanks.

Just ordered my first Organo-MS analysis!

FWIW, amino acids are what they are and do not generally come in different chemical forms or bind appreciably to other random organics (unlike many inorganic trace elements). Many tests show that free amino acids can be taken up by corals.

Uptake of dissolved free amino acids by the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

SUMMARY. This study was designed to assess the importance of dissolved free amino acids (DFAA) as a nitrogen source for the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata. For this purpose, experiments were performed using 15N-enriched DFAAs, and %15N enrichment was measured both in animal tissue and...

journals.biologists.com

from it:

"... indicated good adaptation of the corals to the low levels of DFAA concentrations measured in most oligotrophic waters. DFAA uptake was also correlated with light. "

 

[t5Nitro]

I haven’t done a water change in 3-4 years or so now. I’ll grab one of these tests out of curiosity some time this year yet (I just haven’t wanted to buy another test right now) and report back to the group. Nice to start compiling more data.

 

[Christoph]

Thank you for developing this one. This is one of the toxins that I had been hoping to be able to understand if it is impacting reef tanks. :)

A quick update here, so far we have not found domoic acid in a reef tank, despite very low limits of detection. So at least its not a widespread problem.

Hi @Christoph,

Sorry if this has been asked before, I wasn't able to find an answer while skimming over the comments:

1. Your analysis shows low/normal/elevated ratings for various substances like amino acids. How do you determine which levels are considered "too low" or "too high"?

2. Do we know whether corals can actually absorb these substances in the specific forms your test detects? For instance, could it be that certain amino acids are only taken up when bound to larger food particles through the coral's digestive process, meaning that the dissolved or free forms measured by your test might not be directly usable for them?


I realize these questions sound a bit "skeptical", but I genuinely love what you're doing. Having this kind of data available is absolutely awesome, and I hope it will improve our understanding of what's going on in our tanks.

Just ordered my first Organo-MS analysis!

Hi!

ad 1) these are based on scientific publications that report natural seawater free dissolved amino acid levels. IMO i have already given references in this thread. - Noteworthy there is not much data out there, since DFAA measurement in seawater is quite challanging. Our current setpoints are not carved into stone, and likely we will adapt them soon - the literature values were a starting point. Its a shame i will have to book a flight to hawaai or another beutiful reef location soon to obtain more natural sample material :D

ad 2) yes, this is well documented, this has also been topic in this thread previously. Its also known to be beneficial for coral to take up the amino acids as protein building blocks, compared to the synthesis of these AAs out of other carbon sources.

All the best,
Christoph

 

[EnterName]

Hi @Christoph,

Sorry if this has been asked before, I wasn't able to find an answer while skimming over the comments:

1. Your analysis shows low/normal/elevated ratings for various substances like amino acids. How do you determine which levels are considered "too low" or "too high"?

2. Do we know whether corals can actually absorb these substances in the specific forms your test detects? For instance, could it be that certain amino acids are only taken up when bound to larger food particles through the coral's digestive process, meaning that the dissolved or free forms measured by your test might not be directly usable for them?


I realize these questions sound a bit "skeptical", but I genuinely love what you're doing. Having this kind of data available is absolutely awesome, and I hope it will improve our understanding of what's going on in our tanks.

Just ordered my first Organo-MS analysis!

FWIW, amino acids are what they are and do not generally come in different chemical forms or bind appreciably to other random organics (unlike many inorganic trace elements). Many tests show that free amino acids can be taken up by corals.

Uptake of dissolved free amino acids by the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

SUMMARY. This study was designed to assess the importance of dissolved free amino acids (DFAA) as a nitrogen source for the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata. For this purpose, experiments were performed using 15N-enriched DFAAs, and %15N enrichment was measured both in animal tissue and...

journals.biologists.com

from it:

"... indicated good adaptation of the corals to the low levels of DFAA concentrations measured in most oligotrophic waters. DFAA uptake was also correlated with light. "

Thanks for answering Randy!

That's good "news" for amino acid solutions which are already widely available, but amino acids were just an (unfortunately uneducated) example, I was wondering if all parameters of the Oceamo analysis are actually affecting corals/fish/inverts and can be taken up in their measured form in some way.

If I remember correctly you mentioned in your "thoughts on trace elements" article how certain elements might be taken up from food rather than the water. I was wondering if Oceamo have found an answer to this very question for at least a few of those substances they are checking for.

 

[Christoph]

I hope i understood the question correctly:

The measured Organics are well defined molecules, without any "variants". For example a herbicide that inhibits photosynthesis will be always problematic for coral.

All the best, Christoph

 

[EnterName]

Thank you for developing this one. This is one of the toxins that I had been hoping to be able to understand if it is impacting reef tanks. :)

A quick update here, so far we have not found domoic acid in a reef tank, despite very low limits of detection. So at least its not a widespread problem.

Hi @Christoph,

Sorry if this has been asked before, I wasn't able to find an answer while skimming over the comments:

1. Your analysis shows low/normal/elevated ratings for various substances like amino acids. How do you determine which levels are considered "too low" or "too high"?

2. Do we know whether corals can actually absorb these substances in the specific forms your test detects? For instance, could it be that certain amino acids are only taken up when bound to larger food particles through the coral's digestive process, meaning that the dissolved or free forms measured by your test might not be directly usable for them?


I realize these questions sound a bit "skeptical", but I genuinely love what you're doing. Having this kind of data available is absolutely awesome, and I hope it will improve our understanding of what's going on in our tanks.

Just ordered my first Organo-MS analysis!

Hi!

ad 1) these are based on scientific publications that report natural seawater free dissolved amino acid levels. IMO i have already given references in this thread. - Noteworthy there is not much data out there, since DFAA measurement in seawater is quite challanging. Our current setpoints are not carved into stone, and likely we will adapt them soon - the literature values were a starting point. Its a shame i will have to book a flight to hawaai or another beutiful reef location soon to obtain more natural sample material :D

ad 2) yes, this is well documented, this has also been topic in this thread previously. Its also known to be beneficial for coral to take up the amino acids as protein building blocks, compared to the synthesis of these AAs out of other carbon sources.

All the best,
Christoph

Thank you for answering Christoph!

Regarding 1) So if I understood you correctly you are comparing your customer's samples with some mean value and maybe the standard deviation of samples you have taken yourself + study results? I'm really curious if you are able to find out that elevated or reduced levels of certain parameters are actually beneficial in a reef tank.

Regarding 2) As you may have noticed, Randy answered regarding the amino acids. But there are so many other parameters you guys check. How did you decide which parameters are actually useful to measure and worth including in your analysis?

 

[EnterName]

I hope i understood the question correctly:

The measured Organics are well defined molecules, without any "variants". For example a herbicide that inhibits photosynthesis will be always problematic for coral.

All the best, Christoph

Yes, that answers a significant portion of my remaining questions!

I simply wasn't aware it was "this simple" and assumed many of the measured organics can be found in various forms. For example
- "freely in water" (where not all organisms might be capable of consuming them)
- bound to organic matter in detritus where it might actually get consumed through the digestive tract of corals, etc.

If these organics are well defined and are usually taken up directly through the water, it makes sense to measure them. Thanks again!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree that most organics in general do not have different chemical forms with greatly different properties.

The exceptions are those where there are mirror image compounds (many amino acids qualify), but in most cases, nature largely uses one enantiomer (what one mirror image form is called).

Another exception is a metal chelator such as EDTA, which can and will be complexed to many metals in seawater.

 

[Dan_P]

Count me in for an organo test with my next order. I have still 2 oceamo MS test available. I will notify in the organo sample that I have a macro algae refugium. I am curious about my baseline related to other reef tanks . Aspatic and glutamic acid could be algae related perhaps but could also be from feeding seaweed/nori/related food I guess......

source : https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ercentage-of-total-amino-acids_tbl1_350236396

Here are the amino acid data from four aquaria. I just updated this chart with data from @Dr. Jim (somehow Dr. Jim became Dr. John in the chart). The data is sorted in ascending molecular weight. The basic amino acids are low, while the acidic ones are high. Glutamine is also high. The rest seem to follow a declining trend with ascending molecular weight. In the second chart, the average of the aquarium data expressed in percent of total amino acids is plotted with the average of the three green macro algae from the chart you provided. There is little resemblance between the two. Maybe we are observing the amino acid dregs in all four aquaria which turn out to be remarkably similar.

 

[Marc Pardon]

@Dan_P : thanx ..... is there already data available from skim mate according to levels of AA?

 

[Dan_P]

@Dan_P : thanx ..... is there already data available from skim mate according to levels of AA?

Shortly, I hope. Just received a note that my samples will be tested soon. If all works well, I will post in the next week or so.

 

[Lasse]

Shortly, I hope. Just received a note that my samples will be tested soon. If all works well, I will post in the next week or so.

This is very interesting

Can you - please - publish the result in the other thread too.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[weemanno1]

Hi All,

Last week, we had a visit from Mark, who runs a German reefing YouTube channel. We had a great conversation about the Organo-MS system.

The video should be available in the U.S. with English AI-generated translation, so there may be a few translation quirks—but it still gives a good overview of the hardware setup. Worth checking out if you're curious!






We can detect acetate (and formate) using our ion chromatography system—this is part of the standard ICP analyses and not part of the Organo-MS. However, we typically don’t report these values because concentrations in reef tanks are usually below the limit of detection (LLOD for these ions isn’t great).

That said, if you're curious about a specific analysis and want to know whether formate or acetate was detectable, feel free to ask—I can check the raw data for you.

Ethanol, on the other hand, isn’t measurable with our current setup. Ideally, this would require a headspace-GC system, which is not part of the Oceamo lab at the moment.



If you are based in the US, the Organo-MS is (or will be shortly) available via Reef Moonshiners. Elsewhere check if there is a local distributor or order from us directly.



No, we dont have a bundle. Both analyses are very different in terms of used instruments, workflow, etc.


All the best, Christoph

I've just sent mine off @Christoph should be with you end of the week :) be interesting to see what's missing or not trace elements wise from the tank :) and why only my candy/cane coral is mardy (of all things)

 

[ReneReef]

I cant tell unfortunately. We do not ask if a refugium is used in the Organo-MS sample submission. Would be an interesting point to add.

With amino acids we usually see quite low number with the exception of aspatic and glutamic acid, which are sometimes unexpectedly high. The evaluation of the amino acid results is difficult terrain - the consumption is rapid, outcome of the analysis depends significantly on the time gap between dosing and taking the sampling, so its best to stick to a sampling routine to make results for amino acids most compareable.

All the best, Christoph

Aspartic and glutamic acid are known stimulants of a feeding responses in corals.
Therefore, I wouldn’t be surprised if these are the main components in polyp extension inducing products. And consequently I wouldn’t be surprised that some tanks show high concentrations of these aminos.

Do you maybe see any correlation with such additives mentioned in submission forms?

 

[Dan_P]

This is very interesting

Can you - please - publish the result in the other thread too.

Sincerely Lasse

I will

 

[Marc Pardon]

Is it possible that Aspartic Acid, Glycine and Glutaminic Acid have other properties (like binding to another element) so they can stay much better/surivive/measurable in the water column?

https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium...-and-biochemical-mechanisms-of-calcification/

 

[Marc Pardon]

Additional info :