is quarantining necessary?

[MnFish1]

Is that to say that you don't believe that the supply chain is in fact loaded with diseased fish?

Knowing that 80% of fish will die before hitting the LFS, I thought it was something we just accepted as fact. Wild caught fish bring their diseases into a very new and stressful environment (the distribution supply chain) which helps it get into the system of other fish with lowered immune capacity.

Then how does it happen that Europe does not have this problem? Thats a rhetorical question - but most of the 'problems' seem to be in the US?

But - no that wasn't what I was trying to say, completely. I do not think this is as big a problem as its made out to be - for the simple reason that a fairly large majority of people don't QT. I also am not sure that the '80 percent of fish that die' die of disease, as compared to how they were caught, low oxygen, ammonia, delayed shipping, etc. I'm also not sure that that number is correct (that 80 percent die). My main point was that the argument that some make, i.e., that the fish disease forum has a huge number of posts means something. I was just suggesting that the fish disease forum has a lot of posts because people that dont have problems rarely post "My tank is doing great today"

 

[vetteguy53081]

Quarantining a fish allows the fish to de-stress and for you to have the fish adjust to your parameters, your food while providing it a safe place for it to thrive away from more aggressive and established tank mates who can out compete it for food. Putting a fish directly into your display puts the fish into more stress after being netted at store or from shipment and added stress events leads to the reason why we quarantine our fish.
A fish’s immune system should be able to fight off more infections and diseases, however the shock of transportation compromises your fish’s immune system leaving it vulnerable to any disease that gets shipped with it. Some of these diseases when they break out can be so deadly, they can wipe our your tank within days. So what are these deadly diseases? Well, I will tell you right now it’s not ich. Ich is child’s play compared to these three below and they are becoming more and more common in the fish supply chain:
- Brooklynella (Brook)
- Marine Velvet
- Uronema

Best of all is that quarantining is cheap and easy to set up . there are many methods of quarantining such as :
Copper
Copper power
Ruby rally Pro
General Cure
Prazi
Chloroquine Phosphate
Hyposalinity
Tank transfer method

Whichever method you choose, be sure to monitor QT regularly and if copper - HAVE A GOOD COPPER TEST KIT

 

[code4]

I have had my fish for years. I would hate to let one mistake cost them their lives. Or having to tear down a tank. Catch all my fish and medicate them. For me it is better to quarantine everything. NOTHING goes into my tanks without quarantining first. And I also believe it would give the new tank mates A chance to adjust to captive life before dumping them in a tank with my fat and sassy fish

 

[ReefRxSWFL]

If you dont quarantine, and by qurantine, i mean fish medicated properly with copper, metronidazole and praziquantil.... inverts and corals in a fishless system at 81.6 degrees for 42 days ... at any time, you are just one addition away from killing all of your fish. These fish come stressed from travel and horrible conditions just before they get to you, and they are ripe for a major life threatening disease.

 

[ReefRxSWFL]

Quarantining a fish allows the fish to de-stress and for you to have the fish adjust to your parameters, your food while providing it a safe place for it to thrive away from more aggressive and established tank mates who can out compete it for food. Putting a fish directly into your display puts the fish into more stress after being netted at store or from shipment and added stress events leads to the reason why we quarantine our fish.
A fish’s immune system should be able to fight off more infections and diseases, however the shock of transportation compromises your fish’s immune system leaving it vulnerable to any disease that gets shipped with it. Some of these diseases when they break out can be so deadly, they can wipe our your tank within days. So what are these deadly diseases? Well, I will tell you right now it’s not ich. Ich is child’s play compared to these three below and they are becoming more and more common in the fish supply chain:
- Brooklynella (Brook)
- Marine Velvet
- Uronema

Best of all is that quarantining is cheap and easy to set up . there are many methods of quarantining such as :
Copper
Copper power
Ruby rally Pro
General Cure
Prazi
Chloroquine Phosphate
Hyposalinity
Tank transfer method

Whichever method you choose, be sure to monitor QT regularly and if copper - HAVE A GOOD COPPER TEST KIT

If you dont quarantine, and by qurantine, i mean fish medicated properly with copper, metronidazole and praziquantil.... inverts and corals in a fishless system at 81.6 degrees for 42 days ... at any time, you are just one addition away from killing all of your fish. These fish come stressed from travel and horrible conditions just before they get to you, and they are ripe for a major life threatening disease.

I have 6 large tangs, a dozen large clowns (6 pairs), a 5 inch Blue Star Leopard, a 6 inch Red Head Fairy Wrasse, a 5 inch Yellow Coris Wrasse, a 5 inch Melanaris Wrasse, Starry Blennie, a large Copperband Butterfly and a pair of Anthias who all lived through Hurricaine Irma in 2017 and 11 days with no power, and there is no way.... NO WAY anything would go into one of my tanks without a full best practice quarantine. Some of those fish are over 10 years old, and thats just their time with me.

 

[ReefRxSWFL]

Sorry, but im extremely passionate about this topic. These are not disposable pets like a goldfish in a bowl, and anyone who thinks because they bought a Red Sea, so they are an expert and can get away without REAL quarantine because they have an Apex and a UV sterilizer..... you are so far from right, you’re left. Knowing your biology beats your spending on technology every time.

 

[Squidward]

I'm curious - what would you do about velvet? or Brook or uronema.

I've been lucky to not get velvet doing my 12 days TTM. I've had chromis with uronema die in qurantine but never got into the display.

 

[Fam5dad]

I got an Atlantic tang Monday morning and put him in QT. Monday night it had ich. It's critical IMO.

 

[tc3driver]

Sorry, but im extremely passionate about this topic. These are not disposable pets like a goldfish in a bowl, and anyone who thinks because they bought a Red Sea, so they are an expert and can get away without REAL quarantine because they have an Apex and a UV sterilizer..... you are so far from right, you’re left. Knowing your biology beats your spending on technology every time.

That's an interesting way to look at it.

Knowing biology would mean that it would be better to expose a lifeform to as many strains of an infection as possible, as to build up their immune system, not to tear it down by underutilizing the immune system. But hey... what do I know...

I am not sitting here saying "Hey, lets kill a bunch of fish!! Sounds like fun!!!" What I'm saying is that

I would prefer my tank, pets, family, etc have immune systems as ready for anything as possible. I have read that this may be a reason that greater Apes pick their nose and eat it, as this is a safer way of introducing various pathogens to the immune system, especially airborne pathogens.

While one or two people may have the perfect QT system and are able to follow it to a 'T', even then they can introduce an unknown pathogen to their systems. It just so happens that this pathogen is carried by a fish or invert that has the proper antibodies to fight it, introduce this fish and the rest of your tank has no antibodies to defend against the pathogen, and poof you have a bunch of sick and dying fish.

When this happened to me ~10 years ago with a fresh water tank that I never let anything in without proper QT, and by proper I do mean proper, 50-90 days in QT, Metronidazole, erythromycin, Praziquantel, ich-x, etc... Running the tank through these cycles multiple times, doing everything in my power to not introduce anything unhealthy, sickly, or possibly carrying anything bad to my tank. Added these fish to my tank, and a couple days later... entire tank (save for the added fish) are sick, and start dying off.... It happened very rapidly, and I didn't have time to catch it. It was through this experience that I came to my current beliefs.

We each have our own experiences, and I respect yours. However mine doesn't jibe. From my standpoint, you can do what you want, do what you feel is best, more power to you.

 

[Squidward]

I would prefer my tank, pets, family, etc have immune systems as ready for anything as possible. I have read that this may be a reason that greater Apes pick their nose and eat it, as this is a safer way of introducing various pathogens to the immune system, especially airborne pathogens.

I'm pretty sure 99.999% of saltwater fish we keep are from the wild and has faced parasites, etc. So why continue to let them suffer instead of letting them live in a happier parasite free environment that you and they don't have to worry about defending off or trying to stay alive?

 

[Paul B]

Fish in the sea are not suffering. I will say it again, there is a reason there are no old, healthy quarantined tanks. It is not natural and nothing in this world will live a long life without a functioning immune system. But you can certainly run a tank like that for 5 or 10 years if that is what you want.

 

[starbuck88]

Then how does it happen that Europe does not have this problem? Thats a rhetorical question - but most of the 'problems' seem to be in the US?

That's an interesting point.

I don't know what the practical differences are between what happens with the fish (from source to shop) here in the UK compared to the ones in the US but there is additional time/quarantining and rules/regulations that must be adhered to in the UK and EU by law that I believe doesn't 'have' to take place in the US.

Here we expect to buy a fish that is healthy, is problem free and won't cause devastation to our tanks and it's been like that for as long as I can remember.

We don't have a lot of medications that you guys in the US can get either, it's very difficult for us to get anything that contains anti-biotics and usually you need to get a vet to prescribe you in order to do any sort of medicated bath for fish. For example Kanaplex just isn' readily available here yet most of seachems water additives are abundant.

of course there is the argument that if these extra steps are for example, the fish get medicated to hilt at wholesalers in the UK or when they get to quarantine in the LFS that it means they will have a shorter lifespan, I do not know.

 

[Perthreefer]

IMO this is one of the most basic errors a reefkeeper can make. I couldn’t say what the average cost of a setup is, including all equipment, fish and coral, maybe $3k? Then people decide against a $100 QT setup!
It can be a pain, I do full TTM on every fish so double the amount of everything plus a lot of saltwater, but the alternative is like playing Russian Roulette.
I’ve had multiple fish show symptoms 2 or 3 days into the quarantine process, every time it happens I breathe a sign of relief it wasn’t in my display.

 

[Squidward]

Fish in the sea are not suffering. I will say it again, there is a reason there are no old, healthy quarantined tanks. It is not natural and nothing in this world will live a long life without a functioning immune system. But you can certainly run a tank like that for 5 or 10 years if that is what you want.

Why should fish have to fight off ich etc when we can prevent them? I don't know the full history of qurantine from copper to TTM.. but TTM I believe was a rather newer more recent way to qurantine. Who are the other old timers who did qurantine?? Maybe they can argue with you about how long their tanks were up? My tank from 10 years ago suffered from velvet. So I made sure I would never not qurantine again. We'll see how long my parasite free tank lasts.

Hey DSC reef, instead of laughing at my posts why not state your opinions since I seem to be so wrong that you're constantly laughing??

 

[Paul B]

Why should fish have to fight off ich etc when we can prevent them?

Squidward. As I said I don't want to eliminate ich because that would be very un healthy for my, or anybody's fish.

Remember I was here when we, Including me invented quarantine. There was no one in the hobby when I started because I bought the first fish available in New York in 1971. (Germany started a few years earlier) I am not new at this and have used every method you have ever heard of, some so outrageous you wouldn't believe it.

I learned after 50 years, not 2 or 3 years how to keep fish healthy. I also learned by trial and error, not on the internet which wasn't invented. I also realize it is a hard concept for many people to grasp.

Don't you think by now if I felt quarantining was better I would do that? I want my fish to be healthy, spawn if they can and only die of old age with no help from me. We don't find quarantined fish dying of old age because their immune system is gone from either extended quarantine or medication which kills their gut bacteria which directly controls their immunity unlike ours.

When we lose our immunity from cancer drugs we look and feel lousy and don't generally live to long.

So those fish can live a few years as long as they are never exposed to anything unlike healthy fish in the sea that can and do live with and eat every pathogen with no problems.

As you may know, the immunity of any organism will ebb over time when that system is not exposed to disease organisms. There can be no disease organisms in a quarantined system so they are not exposed to them.

My system depends on pathogens living alongside fish just like in the sea. My fish "NEVER" die or suffer from "ANY" pathogens.

But also what people don't get is that you can't just buy fish and throw them into your tank. They will probably die which is why so many people have a problem and say my system doesn't work.

If your fish got sick you did not use my system because immune fish can't get sick. I can throw any sick fish in my tank and that fish may die. But nothing will happen to my fish. Guaranteed.

Last week I posted I added 2 ich infected cardinals to my tank which I do all the time. I welcome the new parasites as they boost the immunity of my fish while not infecting them. Just like in the sea, my fish all probably have a couple of parasites on them just as all fish in the sea have and so do Humans. We all carry parasites. Are those parasites bothering you right now?

My system depends on "real" food. Something you can't feed to your fish. Live worms and fresh or freshly frozen clams not from a LFS. I feed these foods specifically for the live bacteria and maybe parasites from clams and new fish.

The only old healthy tanks use some form of a natural system. There are I think 3 or 4 on this forum including Lasse, Sub sea, Atoll etc.

As for a scientific study I posted many times new studies on how gut microme control fish immunity.

Any scientist would look at the statistics and see that there are no old, healthy quarantined tanks. Why not? Are your fish spawning? (Fish that can spawn in a tank and not a clown fish)
Only very healthy fish can spawn and virtually all female fish in the sea fill with eggs, male present or not.

I am getting kind of tired of people saying how my fish are suffering from being bitten by parasites when I have probably the oldest, healthiest fish in the oldest tank on any forum in any country you can find.

It really doesn't make sense to me and it is getting annoying as this has been going on since the 80s.

Now someone is going to come on here and tell me that I am killing my fish. Probably someone with a tank they started last Tuesday.

 

[Paul B]

You may find it interesting that in my book I wrote that if I had to start a new tank, with new dry rock and ASW I would have to quarantine for about 10 days with copper (like the fish were in in the store) So I do believe it has a place in the hobby.

I also believe we should not start up a tank with all dry, dead rock but if we have to, our fish will get sick. Not much way around it and in such a tank with no correct bacteria, the fish will be at a great disadvantage and will need help to get them over that hump.

 

[reefinatl]

I know there are tons of opinions on quarantining and not quarantining saltwater fish, but i wonder if it is really necessary to quarantine. I would rather not, because im on a tight budget, but if its absolutely necessary, i'll go for it. Thanks for your help

If a $100 QT setup breaks your budget you need to really evaluate if you are able to support this hobby. That said you can be pretty safe not QTing by buying from local breeders directly on things like cardinals and clowns, directly from biota, and ORA via LA or other drop ship method.

Something still might happen but it's low chance.

Stocking from LFS with no QT is way to risky IMO. Might get lucky stocking a nano with 3 fish buy larger tanks I just don't think it's worth it.

 

[James_O]

This is very controversial, but I’ve never quarantined a fish before. I have never had any die off from adding new fish, so I plan to keep not quarantining.

 

[WVNed]

I had a shaman bless my tanks and drive the evil sprits away.

I have never had disease in my tanks since 2007.

The government should require everyone to do this.

 

[stanleo]

I know there are tons of opinions on quarantining and not quarantining saltwater fish, but i wonder if it is really necessary to quarantine. I would rather not, because im on a tight budget, but if its absolutely necessary, i'll go for it. Thanks for your help

My tank is over 2 years old and I have never quarantined and I have never lost a fish to decease. Some have jumped out, some have been killed through aggression and other factors but never from illness. I think of it like this. You buy a fish at a store after it has been captured in the wild and often shipped 100s of miles and then put a fish in a QT that is often too small for it, messing with it all the time, medicating it, and then weeks later putting it into yet another tank (the DT) that might have a drastically different water chemistry. Compare that to just bringing it home and putting directly into the DT where it has an immediate chance of recovery from its traumatic ordeal and allowing its own innate immune system to save it. I think there is just as big of a chance, if not more, of losing the fish to illness in a QT as there is in the DT. There are a lot of people in this forum that agree with me including a guy that actually wrote a book about reef keeping.