Jeopardy Answer: It cannot be done

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are, of course, a near infinite number of question this applies to, but three that might be worthy of mention are:

1. How can I reduce organics in the water without also removing some trace elements?

2. How can I reduce nitrate in the water without also removing some trace elements?

3. How can I reduce phosphate in the water without also removing some trace elements?

These come to mind when encountering a person who does not want to use some method for one of these because it also consumes some trace elements.

I cannot think of any method for any of these that does not remove trace elements as well, although some (like a water change) may add trace elements back, and some of these methods may remove more or different trace elements than others.

In general, I don't really think trace element export should be a primary reason to not use a method, assuming you need to do it. But knowing what that method removes could be useful in terms of dosing.

If anyone has counterexamples, I'm happy to hear them. :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I don't consider the answer of stopping dosing of N, P, or organics to be a counterexample. lol

 

[sixty_reefer]

I may be wrong but bacteria filtration doesn’t remove trace elements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I may be wrong but bacteria filtration doesn’t remove trace elements.

Where do the bacteria get their trace elements?

 

[rtparty]

4) How can I create magic crystals on the surface of my rock

Sorry, I had to. I’ll sea myself out

Okay enough bad jokes. If I have more pop up, I’ll barium

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Okay enough bad jokes. If I have more pop up, I’ll barium

Perfect. lol

 

[sixty_reefer]

Where do the bacteria get their trace elements?

In what way? I may not be reading the question right, my understanding is that you are saying that we cannot export phosphate or nitrate without also exporting trace elements.
To my knowledge denitrifying bacteria doesn’t require trace elements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In what way? I may not be reading the question right, my understanding is that you are saying that we cannot export phosphate or nitrate without also exporting trace elements.
To my knowledge denitrifying bacteria doesn’t require trace elements.

All earthly organisms require trace elements to live, and as they expand in size or numbers, they need more and more. To reduce nitrate or phosphate or organics via bacteria means they are growing.

 

[IntrinsicReef]

In what way? I may not be reading the question right, my understanding is that you are saying that we cannot export phosphate or nitrate without also exporting trace elements.
To my knowledge denitrifying bacteria doesn’t require trace elements.

If you remove the bacteria via protein skimming, trace elements go with them

 

[IntrinsicReef]

In what way? I may not be reading the question right, my understanding is that you are saying that we cannot export phosphate or nitrate without also exporting trace elements.
To my knowledge denitrifying bacteria doesn’t require trace elements.

I think it is more a reference to carbon dosing and growing bacteria to export

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you remove the bacteria via protein skimming, trace elements go with them

Even if you do not, they are not available in the water any more. Just like growing macroaglae consumes N and P, but also trace elements.

 

[IntrinsicReef]

Even if you do not, they are not available in the water any more. Just like growing macroaglae consumes N and P, but also trace elements.

Is the bacterial population of a reef tank a continuous sink for trace elements? Like making elements unusable to other organisms even after they die? Or do bacteria grow to the food sources, die, then elements are "recycled"?

 

[sixty_reefer]

If you remove the bacteria via protein skimming, trace elements go with them

It really depends on the context of the system where the method is being used and how much nitrate and phosphate a tank is producing imo

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is the bacterial population of a reef tank a continuous sink for trace elements? Like making elements unusable to other organisms even after they die? Or do bacteria grow to the food sources, die, then elements are "recycled"?

The answer to that is, IMO, the same as the answer to whether all or just some of the trace elements in foods are usable: we just don't have data on the recycling of trace elements in reef tanks. Some is recycled, certainly, but it is also likely some is not.

Some likely ends up removed in various ways, such as stuck to detritus, mineralized as a precipitate on the bottom or on rock and sand surfaces, removed by skimming, GAC, etc.

 

[taricha]

So if I run a sulfur denitrifier, I'm gassing off NO3 as N2 and NO etc.
So I ought to be able to keep all my precious trace elements, right? :)

 

[Pod_01]

Well Randy you need to develop a special Organic Peptide Polymer that only releases traces to corals and not bacteria.

As you are aware there is a company that is pioneer in this field:

You just need to tweak them
:face-with-spiral-eyes: …

New science and all…

 

[FrugalReeferJon]

Maybe Micellar-enhanced ultrafiltration (MEUF)? Probably not but I read about it and thought it sounded cool :cool:

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So if I run a sulfur denitrifier, I'm gassing off NO3 as N2 and NO etc.
So I ought to be able to keep all my precious trace elements, right? :)

Well, presumably bacteria that use the nitrate for energy will grow and expand in numbers. I suppose there might be some tricky balance where they are just barely surviving but not actually growing, but I think it would be hard to ensure a denitrator ran that way while actually accomplishing anything useful. :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well Randy you need to develop a special Organic Peptide Polymer that only releases traces to corals and not bacteria.

As you are aware there is a company that is pioneer in this field:

You just need to tweak them
:face-with-spiral-eyes: …

New science and all…

Sure, I'll work on that. lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Maybe Micellar-enhanced ultrafiltration (MEUF)? Probably not but I read about it and thought it sounded cool :cool:

lol

Had to look that up, but no.