Jeopardy Answer: It cannot be done

[FrugalReeferJon]

Bumping this thread because I’d like to hear more thoughts and opinions from others.

 

[VintageReefer]

Some Methods may affect more than others. Water changes remove a portion of all elements, and replenish with a new portion, but the process is really only effective for nitrates and not phosphates

Skimmers don’t remove nitrates or phosphates directly, but help reduce their development. And in the process trace is captured and removed

Refugiums and scrubbers remove nitrates and phosphates but use up various trace like iron and manganese

Every method is going to remove something additonal. Water changes are probably the closest at maintaining a balance, but have the least impact on phosphates

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For those interested, Christoph at Oceamo has tested what trace elements may be removed with some different procedures.

Oceamo skimmate analysis

Oceamo Skimmate Analysis Results Discussion

In a different thread, Christoph of Oceamo posted some analysis data for skimmate, and I'd like to start this thread for discussion of it. One thing I'm hoping Christoph can add is an analysis for the tank water that was on the same tank, so we can readily see how enriched or not the skimmate...

www.reef2reef.com

zeolites, activated carbon (GAC) and GFO:

Reactor media under the ICP-OES loupe | Oceamo

Reactor media such as activated carbon, zeolite or phosphate adsorber are often used in reef aquariums. We were interested about what elements and in which quantities these reactor media release them into the water, and whether frequently heardf statements such as "phosphate adsorbers supply...

en.oceamo.com

zeolites, aluminum oxide, GFO, and GAC

An ICP-MS look onto reactor media Part 2 | Oceamo

What is released into the aquarium water by activated carbon, zeolite and phosphate adsorbers? What trace elements and pollutants are bound?

en.oceamo.com

FWIW, I'm still waiting, so many years later, for an apology from Seachem for blasting me relentlessly for showing and stating that aluminum oxide releases aluminum. Last I heard, they still claim it does not.

Not surprising, the aluminium-based adsorber leads to a significant introduction of aluminium.

 

[Pod_01]

FWIW, I'm still waiting, so many years later, for an apology from Seachem for blasting me relentlessly for showing and stating that aluminum oxide releases aluminum.

Hmmmm….

I do have a question on Al, I don’t use any Al media (used it long ago when I drove PO4 to zero and things didn’t end well ).

My ICP tests show Al going down so is there any point where I need to add Al powder to the tank? I am not sure how critical Al is to the critters.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hmmmm….

I do have a question on Al, I don’t use any Al media (used it long ago when I drove PO4 to zero and things didn’t end well ).

My ICP tests show Al going down so is there any point where I need to add Al powder to the tank? I am not sure how critical Al is to the critters.

Aluminum has no known positive biological role in any organism and I would never intentionally dose it to a reef tank.

 

[Pod_01]

Aluminum has no known positive biological role in any organism and I would never intentionally dose it to a reef tank.

Thank you,

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you,

You're welcome

Happy reefing.

 

[MyFirstCar]

Well, presumably bacteria that use the nitrate for energy will grow and expand in numbers. I suppose there might be some tricky balance where they are just barely surviving but not actually growing, but I think it would be hard to ensure a denitrator ran that way while actually accomplishing anything useful.

Well, don't the excess bacteria end up flushed into the tank? I'm assuming some get removed by skimming, but others will be eaten by tank inhabitants. I'd even go as far to argue that trace elements stored in bacterial tissue are probably bioavailable to the tank, at least to the pods and corals.

 

[MyFirstCar]

Well, don't the excess bacteria end up flushed into the tank? I'm assuming some get removed by skimming, but others will be eaten by tank inhabitants. I'd even go as far to argue that trace elements stored in bacterial tissue are probably bioavailable to the tank, at least to the pods and corals.

So, in theory, a perfect tuned sulphur denitrater where the bacterial load (and introduced carbon) *exactly* matches the carbon needs of the tank, and that tank doesn't run a skimmer could do it?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, don't the excess bacteria end up flushed into the tank? I'm assuming some get removed by skimming, but others will be eaten by tank inhabitants. I'd even go as far to argue that trace elements stored in bacterial tissue are probably bioavailable to the tank, at least to the pods and corals.

If no bacteria are removed by any process, and 100% of the trace elements they take up are recycled into another organism in a usable way, you would be correct. I do not think either of these things will be true in most reef tanks, and I don’t think the recycling part will be true in any tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So, in theory, a perfect tuned sulphur denitrater where the bacterial load (and introduced carbon) *exactly* matches the carbon needs of the tank, and that tank doesn't run a skimmer could do it?

That level of balance may not be very useful in terms of nitrate consumed, but yes, it would be very nearly true.

 

[Luminous74]

What about lanthanum? Does it bind more than just PO₄?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What about lanthanum? Does it bind more than just PO₄?

I expect it does, but more importantly, the particulates themselves are like other minerals and will bind many other ions onto the surfaces. I expect other ions that like to interact with phosphate, such as iron, will readily attach to exposed phosphate ions on the surfaces of lanthanum phosphate particles, just as they bind to carbonate on the surfaces of calcium carbonate.

 

[JoJosReef]

Wouldn't it be "What cannot be done?"

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wouldn't it be "What cannot be done?"

Well, I never watch that show, so probably confused things by saying the Jeopardy answer, since that's a bit ambiguous. lol

 

[KrisReef]

There are, of course, a near infinite number of question this applies to, but three that might be worthy of mention are:

1. How can I reduce organics in the water without also removing some trace elements?

2. How can I reduce nitrate in the water without also removing some trace elements?

3. How can I reduce phosphate in the water without also removing some trace elements?

These come to mind when encountering a person who does not want to use some method for one of these because it also consumes some trace elements.

I cannot think of any method for any of these that does not remove trace elements as well, although some (like a water change) may add trace elements back, and some of these methods may remove more or different trace elements than others.

In general, I don't really think trace element export should be a primary reason to not use a method, assuming you need to do it. But knowing what that method removes could be useful in terms of dosing.

If anyone has counterexamples, I'm happy to hear them.

Generally agree with the above statement with two notable exceptions; Chuck Norris and Jesus of Nazareth.

No Image of Our Lord per site Commandments policy.

 

[Luminous74]

Generally agree with the above statement with two notable exceptions; Chuck Norris and Jesus of Nazareth.

No Image of Our Lord per site Commandments policy.

The difference between Randy Holmes-Farley and Chuck Norris? Randy Holmes-Farley explains how marine chemistry works. Chuck Norris tells marine chemistry how it’s supposed to work. Why am I thinking about bolus now? Does Chuck Norris own a company in Europe?

 

[drewzaun]

Serious question, not being a jerk, is or should this discussion result in actionable information?

What I mean is, nutrient export has been a thing for as long as we have kept aquariums, but the existence and possible importance of trace elements is very recent, at least at the hobbyist level. We have been operating blind to this topic far longer than we have been aware of it, and removing trace via whatever we have been doing so far hasn’t as far as I am aware of had a negative impact.

I am admitting near total ignorance as to the importance of trace elements to the organisms in my care. I’ve done only 1 ICP test in my hobby career, and that was when I first started out and was killing everything (turned out I had 2 different salinity measuring devices out of calibration the same amount, and they checked each other. Lesson learned everything gets calibrated now)

I am still somewhat skeptical that things like moonshiners may more about the amount of attention you are paying to your aquarium vs the dosing of trace elements. Sort of like the guy who eats McD’s everyday takes a fish oil pill thinking that will keep the cardiologist away.

My philosophy in most things is take care of the big things and the small stuff takes care of itself. But I’ve been wrong before and am always looking for more information…in this case is the juice worth the squeeze? I am open to the idea

 

[Pod_01]

but the existence and possible importance of trace elements is very recent, at least at the hobbyist level.

I believe Hans-Werner has been on the trace element crusade for the past 30 years…

I published a formula for trace element dosing in 1995/1996 in a German aquarium magazine. After this publication several new companies with trace element dosing popped up in Germany, Korallenzucht, Fauna Marin and others.

I also believe the TM A and K elements has been on the market for approximately 20 years.
Trace elements are not really a new thing in the hobby.

Full knowledge of what all trace elements do, that is work in progress…

I do believe trace elements make a difference, and am happy with TM A and K elements.

The single bottle dosing of each element, I am not into that. Tried it, no luck.

 

[BristleWormHater]

There are, of course, a near infinite number of question this applies to, but three that might be worthy of mention are:

1. How can I reduce organics in the water without also removing some trace elements?

2. How can I reduce nitrate in the water without also removing some trace elements?

3. How can I reduce phosphate in the water without also removing some trace elements?

These come to mind when encountering a person who does not want to use some method for one of these because it also consumes some trace elements.

I cannot think of any method for any of these that does not remove trace elements as well, although some (like a water change) may add trace elements back, and some of these methods may remove more or different trace elements than others.

In general, I don't really think trace element export should be a primary reason to not use a method, assuming you need to do it. But knowing what that method removes could be useful in terms of dosing.

If anyone has counterexamples, I'm happy to hear them.

Chuck Norris can do it