Long time reefer and various spp octopus keeper

[elessar333]

I received an octopus that is 3x larger than he was advertised (a GPO). My 465g with 75g sump is now inadequate for him….I can’t keep up the water changes and de-ammonificatuon chemicals to accommodate him. Have triple filtrated the tank, but have to keep adding chemicals. Any suggestions to overcome this, long-term and short-term? Lots of live rock, bio balls and filter sponges from other, established tanks isn’t cutting it, and can’t afford 200g + salt and water changes every 3 days. Does DE filtration lower NH3? Pool filters? (And if so, what kind?). Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[Macropharyngodon]

I received an octopus that is 3x larger than he was advertised (a GPO). My 465g with 75g sump is now inadequate for him….I can’t keep up the water changes and de-ammonificatuon chemicals to accommodate him. Have triple filtrated the tank, but have to keep adding chemicals. Any suggestions to overcome this, long-term and short-term? Lots of live rock, bio balls and filter sponges from other, established tanks isn’t cutting it, and can’t afford 200g + salt and water changes every 3 days. Does DE filtration lower NH3? Pool filters? (And if so, what kind?). Thanks in advance for your help!

You got a giant pacific octopus? Thats freaking crazy. Nearby aquarium potentially willing to rehome?

 

[elessar333]

That was my original plan: get one smaller, grow it out for 1-2 yrs, then re-home by convincing a local attraction to start an exhibit ( with my help and expertise). Not enough time to start all that, short term.

 

[Fish Fan]

The biofilter (what processes ammonia) should have been very well established before ordering an animal like an octopus. Did you do anything to cycle this tank before adding livestock?

Ammonia should never be an ongoing issue to contend with. If the octopus was larger than expected, and may be causing a spike in ammonia now, in a few days to a week or so the bacteria should catch up and be able to handle all the ammonia. The rock and sand alone should provide enough surface area for nitrifying bacteria.

I would suggest that you stop adding the ammonia locking chemicals like Seachem Prime, these don't actually work at detoxifying ammonia as indicated on the bottle.

DE or Diatomaceous Earth filters were popular some years ago, they are used largely to "polish" water and not really a primary filter. I don't believe a DE filter would help your ammonia issue.

I agree that if your system isn't up to the task of safely housing this animal, I'd look to a large public aquarium to hopefully take him.

Good luck!

 

[elessar333]

The biofilter (what processes ammonia) should have been very well established before ordering an animal like an octopus. Did you do anything to cycle this tank before adding livestock?

Ammonia should never be an ongoing issue to contend with. If the octopus was larger than expected, and may be causing a spike in ammonia now, in a few days to a week or so the bacteria should catch up and be able to handle all the ammonia. The rock and sand alone should provide enough surface area for nitrifying bacteria.

I would suggest that you stop adding the ammonia locking chemicals like Seachem Prime, these don't actually work at detoxifying ammonia as indicated on the bottle.

DE or Diatomaceous Earth filters were popular some years ago, they are used largely to "polish" water and not really a primary filter. I don't believe a DE filter would help your ammonia issue.

I agree that if your system isn't up to the task of safely housing this animal, I'd look to a large public aquarium to hopefully take him.

Good luck!

Some useful information here, such as DE use, but am a little taken aback by your earliest statements, since I identified as a longtime reefer and keeper of octopuses; did you really ask if I had cycled the tank beforehand? I understand your comment was o/w intended for the masses, who may not have realized this is important.
The problem is that a huge bio-load was introduced all-at-once, to a system not yet acclimated to that qty of nitrogenous waste (as I mentioned, was told it was much smaller than it actually was). Any system, even a mature system, can be thus overloaded. It will ramp up much more quickly than an immature system, of course.

 

[Fish Fan]

did you really ask if I had cycled the tank beforehand?

It seems like a valid question given your circumstance

What is currently happening? Are you still experiencing high ammonia?

 

[elessar333]

It seems like a valid question given your circumstance

What is currently happening? Are you still experiencing high ammonia?

I don’t think you critically read my posts, before pontificating. Again, you missed the point of a sudden increase in bio-load to a mature system. You can stop responding to my threads, now.

 

[Macropharyngodon]

What is the current status?

 

[GratefulDad1968]

I’m going to be brutally honest, here. I’ve carefully (maybe even critically) read your plea for help and fish fans’ response. You blindly purchased an animal, which would depend on your care and “expertise;” hoping that in a couple of years (very near the end of its life cycle)…you could pawn it off on a “local attraction”? Fish Fans’ comment/concern/advice was perfectly sound. He didn’t misread your comment or “pontificate”. Ask yourself this: what was your plan if the local attraction wouldn’t accept your fare? Flush it? You cast blame on the seller (DO BETTER RESEARCH!!!) and those who give legitimate feedback (FishFans)… own it. Get a better setup.

 

[elessar333]

What is the current status?

Sorry, didn’t get to see your query until just now. He’s doing as well as can be expected; he takes a varied diet from my hand-feeding (with tongs). Live crabs, of course, are his favorite, and not a little pricey to obtain! But worth it. The biggest challenge is enrichment: he can see my other fish tanks, I physically and visually interact with him at least 2-3x/d, and I share videos from my phone with him, until I can get a used 55” TV mounted tomorrow, in which I will play a loop of coral and other seascape DVDs. I had a Wunderpus that actually watched TV with us, in the same room we were in, so maybe he’ll eventually appreciate regular TV, too. Regular, twice weekly 60% water changes are required, and at 55F temp, which is labor and $-intensive. Do you have any octopus experiences to share?

 

[elessar333]

I’m going to be brutally honest, here. I’ve carefully (maybe even critically) read your plea for help and fish fans’ response. You blindly purchased an animal, which would depend on your care and “expertise;” hoping that in a couple of years (very near the end of its life cycle)…you could pawn it off on a “local attraction”? Fish Fans’ comment/concern/advice was perfectly sound. He didn’t misread your comment or “pontificate”. Ask yourself this: what was your plan if the local attraction wouldn’t accept your fare? Flush it? You cast blame on the seller (DO BETTER RESEARCH!!!) and those who give legitimate feedback (FishFans)… own it. Get a better setup.

Your assumptions are appalling in their number and degree, and all given without a shred of useful content or desire to answer the original request. Just one e.g., the local “attraction” already has a GPO. Never purchased an animal without extensive research (which I have actually contributed to, you?) I wish you luck in your future personal and online interactions.

 

[MyFirstCar]

Back to the original question, how are your parameters looking now? I imagine you're past the ammonia stage, and more looking at large scale denitrification? Or is there simply not enough surface area for the denitrifying bacteria to keep up with the octopus?

 

[Nano_Man]

Do you live near the sea . I changed to NSW 3 years ago and never looked back.
You're temp is 55f so do you use a chiller . Also I keep cold water marine. Go and catch shore crabs at low tide would also lower your bills

 

[elessar333]

Back to the original question, how are your parameters looking now? I imagine you're past the ammonia stage, and more looking at large scale denitrification? Or is there simply not enough surface area for the denitrifying bacteria to keep up with the octopus?

The surface area is more than triple the “normal” needed for this 465+75g sump system. The problem is the temperature; microbes useful in de-ammonification, de-nitrification and then de-“nitratification” work exceptionally well at 74-80F. They even work relatively well at 65F, the temp I use for Bimacs. But at the necessary temp needed for GPOs, i.e., 55F, they are much less efficient, as in all microbial systems (microbiology graduate, here). This necessitates more frequent water changes, about 60-65%, twice weekly, and occasional use of detoxifying chemicals.
Ammonia as “free” ammonia is not readily measurable, either, as almost all commercially available tests test both NH3 AND the detoxified component, NH4 (ammonium), and I haven’t found yet a tester which tests only free Ammonia. Know of one?

 

[EricR]

I have no useful input but would love to see a picture of the tank and octopus whenever time permits.

 

[Fish Fan]

Ammonia as “free” ammonia is not readily measurable, either, as almost all commercially available tests test both NH3 AND the detoxified component, NH4 (ammonium), and I haven’t found yet a tester which tests only free Ammonia. Know of one?

Free Ammonia Calculator

Aquarium calculator; Estimate the free (un-ionized) ammonia (NH3) concentration, given the total ammonia concentration.

www.hamzasreef.com

 

[Fish Fan]

and occasional use of detoxifying chemicals.

As mentioned previously, these "detoxifying" products DO NOT WORK for ammonia - from one microbiology major to another

A Deep Dive on Ammonia Neutralizer Chemistry - Prime, ClorAm-X, Rongalite and friends.

Summary (the whole thing in one paragraph) ClorAm-X is the best-performing of a barely effective product concept. Under the label usage ClorAm-X (but not Prime, or other common products) can be measured to lower the amount of total ammonia in a saltwater sample. This process is slow...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[elessar333]

As mentioned previously, these "detoxifying" products DO NOT WORK for ammonia - from one microbiology major to another

A Deep Dive on Ammonia Neutralizer Chemistry - Prime, ClorAm-X, Rongalite and friends.

Summary (the whole thing in one paragraph) ClorAm-X is the best-performing of a barely effective product concept. Under the label usage ClorAm-X (but not Prime, or other common products) can be measured to lower the amount of total ammonia in a saltwater sample. This process is slow...

www.reef2reef.com

Very helpful! The product I have been using is specifically: “Aqualife Complete”, by Aqualife. The ingredients listed (VERY non-specifically!) are:
“Electrolytes, buffers, and a proprietary polymer formulation “. A polymer should as such should not be something like the formaldehyde/sulfonate molecules you mentioned, but in ads, true chemistry is of course thrown right out the window.
Do you recommend any Better additive, safe for Marine life?

 

[Fish Fan]

Very helpful! The product I have been using is specifically: “Aqualife Complete”, by Aqualife. The ingredients listed (VERY non-specifically!) are:
“Electrolytes, buffers, and a proprietary polymer formulation “. A polymer should as such should not be something like the formaldehyde/sulfonate molecules you mentioned, but in ads, true chemistry is of course thrown right out the window.
Do you recommend any Better additive, safe for Marine life?

Now I'm not quite sure what you're looking for in an additive

I assumed you were using something to try to "bind" or reduce ammonia, and from the link above those products don't work for ammonia like it says on the bottle. I don't know of any product that does.

But maybe you were looking more for like trace elements?

 

[MyFirstCar]

The surface area is more than triple the “normal” needed for this 465+75g sump system. The problem is the temperature; microbes useful in de-ammonification, de-nitrification and then de-“nitratification” work exceptionally well at 74-80F. They even work relatively well at 65F, the temp I use for Bimacs. But at the necessary temp needed for GPOs, i.e., 55F, they are much less efficient, as in all microbial systems (microbiology graduate, here). This necessitates more frequent water changes, about 60-65%, twice weekly, and occasional use of detoxifying chemicals.
Ammonia as “free” ammonia is not readily measurable, either, as almost all commercially available tests test both NH3 AND the detoxified component, NH4 (ammonium), and I haven’t found yet a tester which tests only free Ammonia. Know of one?

This might be a dumb idea, but what about taking half of your sump rock into a new tank at 82F, and then water change into that tank, and then take the water from that tank and chill it back into the octopus tank? Basically water change between two tanks, one at high temp to rapidly de-ammonia, and one at octopus temp. Then you can even do a bunch of carbon dosing on the "hot" tank to get rid of nitrate too. That of course requires a second tank (or at lease a big plastic tub), and probably a second skimmer.