Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.
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Lasse
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As I understand - this is right for freshwater - saltwater has a lower oxygen content - around 1.5 mg/l lesser at 100% saturation at 20° C -> around 7.5 mg/l
Sincerely Lasse
Squamosa
Well-Known Member
Yes
Yes you are correct, sincere apologies for not being clearer!
At ~35 ppt salinity and 20° C it is 7.2 mg/L or it is according to this table I looked at (no references provided).
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/oxygen-solubility-water-d_841.html
Cheers
Yes you are correct, sincere apologies for not being clearer!
At ~35 ppt salinity and 20° C it is 7.2 mg/L or it is according to this table I looked at (no references provided).
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/oxygen-solubility-water-d_841.html
Cheers
Look guys, none of this other stuff is needed. Go to Lowe's or Home Depot and pick these up. It's under $20. The valve is half the cost. You'll be scrubbing in 10 minutes with adjustable bubble control.
Check out this video on YouTube:
Check out this video on YouTube:
Look guys, none of this other stuff is needed. Go to Lowe's or Home Depot and pick these up. It's under $20. The valve is half the cost. You'll be scrubbing in 10 minutes with adjustable bubble control.
Check out this video on YouTube:
Check out this video on YouTube:
Squamosa
Well-Known Member
Oh, I like this :)
What would you estimate the size of the microbubbles to be?
Do they stay in the water column for a length of time after the pump stops...say, 10 min or more?
DMan
Active Member
A lot of I think I observed and I was thinking and my understanding and from what I've seen. No one seems to have an answer as to how it will affect fish and equipment. I got a response that reef fish deal with bubbles. True but not constantly for 8-10 hrs. Skimmer pumps handle all the air but what about other pumps, like vortechs or other powerheads. How about heaters. I love this hobby for the very fact we can experiment but I do laugh sometimes at how quickly people jump on the bandwagon (your probably used to it if you're a Toronto Maple Leafs fan.....ouch) and start trying anything and everything. Not just with this experiment. I saw someone the other day asking what light schedule was used in a pic of a nice tank using a Radion. When the person got the name of the schedule, without even knowing what the schedule did they were convinced this was the one they had been looking for their whole lives.
DMan
Active Member
Lol.....this is what some of the posts look like. I tried it for 5 min yesterday but didn't see any results. So I stopped. Or...Tried it and the next day everything grew 2inches. It's an exaggeration but it is what some are sounding like. Grains of salt,,,,,grains of salt.
Ok a little of topic, maybe so maybe not so............. IMO why do ppl go to PM's if they wanna share or like to know info about this hobby??
If I have a personal question YES but if it is about a topic a BIG NO!!
As the [HASHTAG]#reefsquad[/HASHTAG] ppl think we know a lot but we are just a extension of many and help as much members out due to connecting them with other knowledgeable hobbyist.
Sometimes it the info we give out it bounces with scientist but the answers or info we give out is manly from experience and other trials that proofs it worked.
I get a lot of PM's and tell all who do have a relevant question in this or for this hobby to start a thread here on R2R as more answers will be posted, many more hobbyist will readit and learn from that.
The reason for that is this hobby is so wonderful as in amazing, you don't have to do this or that but find a way that is working for your tank only and if it doesn't work change it and if THAT doesn't work change it again.
That said coming back to a question that isn't relevant to this topic "Public Aquaria's"
I know this system very well as in the 70's it was used in Germany, they already did this on a large scale in the purification of water in waste management plants, called it the DAF system, Dissolved Air Flotation.
They use it here in the US with great success so why not try it AGAIN in aquariums??
IMO all it does is turn you tank into a large Nutrient Transport System (NTS).
It moves it from the DT to the sump/skimmer/miracle mud refugium or anything that moves it out of your water column.
Besides that there are just not many public aquaria's that used this method doesn't mean there weren't any, the few that did it weren't going public with it.
These are the few that I know,
Mandalay Bay Shark Reef, after a while some scientist took the surge sequence out of the programming, some scientist said that the bubbles might kill the sharks.
Long Beach Aquarium but they never published it.
Reefgrow does know why this is working as it will fill in the missing portion of water chemistry though.
They know water chemistry more than anyone else
Ok back to the bubbling topic.
If I have a personal question YES but if it is about a topic a BIG NO!!
As the [HASHTAG]#reefsquad[/HASHTAG] ppl think we know a lot but we are just a extension of many and help as much members out due to connecting them with other knowledgeable hobbyist.
Sometimes it the info we give out it bounces with scientist but the answers or info we give out is manly from experience and other trials that proofs it worked.
I get a lot of PM's and tell all who do have a relevant question in this or for this hobby to start a thread here on R2R as more answers will be posted, many more hobbyist will readit and learn from that.
The reason for that is this hobby is so wonderful as in amazing, you don't have to do this or that but find a way that is working for your tank only and if it doesn't work change it and if THAT doesn't work change it again.
That said coming back to a question that isn't relevant to this topic "Public Aquaria's"
I know this system very well as in the 70's it was used in Germany, they already did this on a large scale in the purification of water in waste management plants, called it the DAF system, Dissolved Air Flotation.
They use it here in the US with great success so why not try it AGAIN in aquariums??
IMO all it does is turn you tank into a large Nutrient Transport System (NTS).
It moves it from the DT to the sump/skimmer/miracle mud refugium or anything that moves it out of your water column.
Besides that there are just not many public aquaria's that used this method doesn't mean there weren't any, the few that did it weren't going public with it.
These are the few that I know,
Mandalay Bay Shark Reef, after a while some scientist took the surge sequence out of the programming, some scientist said that the bubbles might kill the sharks.
Long Beach Aquarium but they never published it.
Reefgrow does know why this is working as it will fill in the missing portion of water chemistry though.
They know water chemistry more than anyone else
Ok back to the bubbling topic.
Squamosa
Well-Known Member
I found a paper written by Yovita Mallya, a masters student in 2007 that caught my eye.
The paper offers good review of the literature that came before it.
It is titled 'THE EFFECTS OF DISSOLVED OXYGEN ON FISH GROWTH IN AQUACULTURE'
http://www.unuftp.is/static/fellows/document/yovita07prf.pdf
'I'll post the abstract to save you looking at the whole paper :)
'Commercial aquaculture is growing worldwide except in Africa where production is still low. With fisheries reaching a stagnating phase, the world and more so Africa will have to look to aquaculture in the future to provide fish products that will likely be needed. In view of this, a study on water quality management was done which specifically looked at the effects of dissolved oxygen saturation on fish growth. The study was done through a review of literature and a case study using Atlantic halibut. In the case study, halibut of 20-50 g in weight were reared in replicate at 60%, 80%, 100%, 120% and 140% oxygen saturation levels in a tank recirculation system. The subsequent effect of oxygen saturation levels on growth and feed conversion ratios were taken after two weeks. The results showed that oxygen saturation level had a positive effect on the growth and feed conversion ratio when it was set at 80%-120% saturation. At 140% the growth was slightly lower and the feed conversion ratio was higher at 60% and 140% compared to the other groups. The conclusion was that oxygen saturation level has an effect on growth and feed conversion ratios of fish, and in the case of Atlantic halibut, the growth rate is higher when the oxygen level is between 80% and 120%. The feed conversion ratio for halibut was lower at 120% oxygen saturation'.
Her experiments were done on juvenile halibut at 18ppt salinity and at 10ºC
The paper offers good review of the literature that came before it.
It is titled 'THE EFFECTS OF DISSOLVED OXYGEN ON FISH GROWTH IN AQUACULTURE'
http://www.unuftp.is/static/fellows/document/yovita07prf.pdf
'I'll post the abstract to save you looking at the whole paper :)
'Commercial aquaculture is growing worldwide except in Africa where production is still low. With fisheries reaching a stagnating phase, the world and more so Africa will have to look to aquaculture in the future to provide fish products that will likely be needed. In view of this, a study on water quality management was done which specifically looked at the effects of dissolved oxygen saturation on fish growth. The study was done through a review of literature and a case study using Atlantic halibut. In the case study, halibut of 20-50 g in weight were reared in replicate at 60%, 80%, 100%, 120% and 140% oxygen saturation levels in a tank recirculation system. The subsequent effect of oxygen saturation levels on growth and feed conversion ratios were taken after two weeks. The results showed that oxygen saturation level had a positive effect on the growth and feed conversion ratio when it was set at 80%-120% saturation. At 140% the growth was slightly lower and the feed conversion ratio was higher at 60% and 140% compared to the other groups. The conclusion was that oxygen saturation level has an effect on growth and feed conversion ratios of fish, and in the case of Atlantic halibut, the growth rate is higher when the oxygen level is between 80% and 120%. The feed conversion ratio for halibut was lower at 120% oxygen saturation'.
Her experiments were done on juvenile halibut at 18ppt salinity and at 10ºC
Yes they do. They are very tiny. Takes 15-20 minutes for the water to clear after all flow is off.
What you did is nice but it ain't good as 95% give and take your bubbles are to big.
Still the 5% in there will do its job and as MicroNano bubbles.
I'll explain later as I'm about to leave.
Squamosa
Well-Known Member
Might be so ,but it's better than I'm getting :D
And I think for this application it's more than enough to get results :)
Squamosa
Well-Known Member
They also injected O2 into the water column to get those saturation levels!
Correct, as I said it's nice.
Well I just missed my flight to Orlando as I bought tickets last night to visit WWC and take some corals home today as it is my BD, sitting here at Hobby airport with a really nice lady that got me a Starbucks and I don't know when my next flight is, UGH.
Might as well explain why most ppl injecting to large of bubbles into their return pump.
Reeflogic
Powered by KGB
I have a single 5" blue squamosa clam and he is not affected at this point, roughly 10 days into bubbling.
I'm getting the same results with a small Reef Octopus nano-skimmer pump. I have it suctioned on the sump wall adjacent to my return pump, so the bubbles are blowing across the intake of the return, not directly at the return. The intake of the pump pulls all of the tiny bubbles in and chops them up into smaller bubbles and my display looks just like your video. I'd still like to test a limewood diffuser to see if the bubbles get even finer, but for now, it looks like they are on par with others, so I will probably just ride it out like this!
Squamosa
Well-Known Member
We've tested this method using a Sicce PSK 600 and get roughly the same amount (by eye) of bubbles as with the wooden block :)
If that helps!
Bubbling.
Maybe a little more understanding why it works for ppl and not for others.
It's just not like drilling a hole in your pump or sticking a wood air stone UNDER the return pump.
Also you want to run this on a timer during the night using either a air-pump with a wood stone diffuser under there or a solenoid if you go with a Mazzei Venturi attached to your return pump.
The reason EC is using a Limewood airstone is that it create about 5% of the Micronano bubbles, ceramic dics are better but they clog a lot.
Drilling a hole in your return pump isn't by far the same, it looks impressive though but not the same.
Meaning depending on pore size and shearing of the water and then the shearing again of the bubbles with a sharp edged impeller, you'd get even smaller bubbles, with the limewood airstone we are getting 45um to around 120um... with more being on a slightly larger size... those rise to the surface quickly and are eliminated from the dwelling... so far with me?
So what we are left with are the smaller sized ones that dwell for hours and sometimes days...
Even if we were producing 5% microbubbles per pass, 95% are rejected by bouyancy... 5% of the generation is still viable over time, the 5%'s add up and you get a hazy look, not a truly cloudy one.
The pictures taken on EC FB page and website are "in motion" so many hobbyists think that there's a ton of obscuring bubbles and the cloudiness didn't happen instantaneously... it was generated over a period of 30 minutes to an hour.
If you are taking on too much air, you'll notice a HUGE decrease in flow, if that happens, all you do is scoot the diffuser away from the intake.
Located the airstone or disc between the weir from the refugium to the return pump chamber... that way, once again, the larger bubbles are "taken out of the equation" and the truly suspended bubbles are caught in the high volume laminar flow in that water fall area and delivered to the return pump.
This also ensures NO SUPER SATURATION of air into the DT.
You want to create a soft and gentle is desired... loftly like a fog... and a cloud, not jet propulsion.
I hope this all makes sense.
.
It's just not like drilling a hole in your pump or sticking a wood air stone UNDER the return pump.
Also you want to run this on a timer during the night using either a air-pump with a wood stone diffuser under there or a solenoid if you go with a Mazzei Venturi attached to your return pump.
The reason EC is using a Limewood airstone is that it create about 5% of the Micronano bubbles, ceramic dics are better but they clog a lot.
Drilling a hole in your return pump isn't by far the same, it looks impressive though but not the same.
Meaning depending on pore size and shearing of the water and then the shearing again of the bubbles with a sharp edged impeller, you'd get even smaller bubbles, with the limewood airstone we are getting 45um to around 120um... with more being on a slightly larger size... those rise to the surface quickly and are eliminated from the dwelling... so far with me?
So what we are left with are the smaller sized ones that dwell for hours and sometimes days...
Even if we were producing 5% microbubbles per pass, 95% are rejected by bouyancy... 5% of the generation is still viable over time, the 5%'s add up and you get a hazy look, not a truly cloudy one.
The pictures taken on EC FB page and website are "in motion" so many hobbyists think that there's a ton of obscuring bubbles and the cloudiness didn't happen instantaneously... it was generated over a period of 30 minutes to an hour.
If you are taking on too much air, you'll notice a HUGE decrease in flow, if that happens, all you do is scoot the diffuser away from the intake.
Located the airstone or disc between the weir from the refugium to the return pump chamber... that way, once again, the larger bubbles are "taken out of the equation" and the truly suspended bubbles are caught in the high volume laminar flow in that water fall area and delivered to the return pump.
This also ensures NO SUPER SATURATION of air into the DT.
You want to create a soft and gentle is desired... loftly like a fog... and a cloud, not jet propulsion.
I hope this all makes sense.
.
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