Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[Greenstreet.1]

Everyone is WELCOME here! :) Just keep is flame free and don't personal an we can all learn together!

I'm not here for that bro I'm here to learn.

Allday

 

[kschweer]

Everyone is WELCOME here! :) Just keep is flame free and don't personal an we can all learn together!

Yes please!

 

[Greenstreet.1]

NOT HERE TO ARGUE IM HERE TO LEARN.

Ok with that said I don't have Fb so I don't get to see have the things you guys see I have just been following this and the other thread here on r2r I have a few questions concerning this

Can someone explain these three parts for me ? I did not understand the answers that where given.

1.So how do I know it's working
2.How effective is it in treating common aquarium problems.

And the last one I would like to understand how it does what the answer say it does : 3. How do we make it even better than it already is.

Thank you for your time.


ONELOVE ALLDAY.

EXPLAIN THESE AND YOU WILL ANSWER SOME OF MY QUESTIONS.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Sorry about that @revhtree but my comment had nothing to do with him in no way at all but yet he put the cap on. Once again sorry for that.

 

[dwebb1031]

I cannot speak for @Thales, I do not know him, or anything about him except he must work at a public aquarium. Thales has posted a few times the bold claims made and asked how do we know they are true? Others like @Randy Holmes-Farley have asked similar questions without the backlash. I come from the emergency medicine "world," and being skepticle is necessary as things taught and learned often change just a few years later! Theories are proved and disproved all the time! If a physician questions the study method, primary outcome, patient population,etc, etc, of a trial published it is not then up to the question party to prove anything! Rather, what ever entity published the study or trial must release all the data and methods. Then often other trials and studies are setup to duplicate results or ask/answer new or different questions. There is much bias associated with anecdotal evidence especially in a hobby as this where no two tanks are the same. So, bubbling probably benefits some tanks, but we need to know what is happening and why. Anyone claiming to have a new or better way should provide at least some data! This goes for all the companies selling products too! We as a community should do a better job of asking questions and learning basic science! Otherwise I could tell you I pee in my tank every night to boost nitrates! Nitrates?, you say! Yes the ammonia in my pee converts to nitrite then nitrate and this is the best and safest way to increase nitrates in a reef tank! I've been doing it for three months and my tank has never looked better! Frankly, I cannot believe everyone isn't doing it!!

I don't deny what your saying. I for one have not done this study intentionally yet. I plan to start this weekend. However I do inadvertently do it every few days when water level gets low. The thing to keep in mind is yes in your field that is a must. Most of us however are not scientist and are mere hobbyist, thus it may not be easy for us to quantify the data required for the "proof" needed. I for one couldn't afford to do so. I can however say that I tried this for "x" months and this is what I personally noticed in my tank. Lacking the ability to provide recorded data in a control vs variable environment should not warrant ridicule to the extent it has. If my lack of data isn't enough for you (as a reader) don't try it.

 

[dwebb1031]

Forget Bout the back and fourth it seems like no one want to answer any questions but are will to argue that it works but still will not explain things they post. We are all here to learn and teach each other lets do that.

What is your question again I apologize it's hard to keep track. I am starting this process this weekend and would love to share what I find.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

What is your question again I apologize it's hard to keep track. I am starting this process this weekend and would love to share what I find.

It's above the post you just quoted

 

[edosan]

So basically no mater what forum you are on, "issues" are always the same...funny. Jajaja

 

[McMullen]

I don't deny what your saying. I for one have not done this study intentionally yet. I plan to start this weekend. However I do inadvertently do it every few days when water level gets low. The thing to keep in mind is yes in your field that is a must. Most of us however are not scientist and are mere hobbyist, thus it may not be easy for us to quantify the data required for the "proof" needed. I for one couldn't afford to do so. I can however say that I tried this for "x" months and this is what I personally noticed in my tank. Lacking the ability to provide recorded data in a control vs variable environment should not warrant ridicule to the extent it has. If my lack of data isn't enough for you (as a reader) don't try it.

I am complete agreement with everything you said! From a hobby standpoint anecdotal evidence is wonderful and appropriate! I believe when people observe positive change from bubbling that something has taken place to infact cause this positive correlation. I also believe people who do not observe any change. We all know that no two tanks are exactly alike. Personally, what I don't understand is why someone with a reefkeeper or apex and pH probe haven't tested and posted data. This would be a hobby level experiment and could progress the conversation forward! I simply don't have the equipment, but I'm sure someone who has been reading this does!

Now, there are some claims that have been made that just don't seem to make since and would be quite difficult to test and prove, would take months of testing/growing just to aquire observational data, but that's not what most of us want to know.....for now...... :)

 

[Thales]

Most of us however are not scientist and are mere hobbyist, thus it may not be easy for us to quantify the data required for the "proof" needed.

But there is a lot any hobbyist can quantify. pH for instance levels rising or stabilizing. If you can't test pH, then you can't make the claim that it has stabilized or gone up right?

Lacking the ability to provide recorded data in a control vs variable environment should not warrant ridicule to the extent it has.

I don't believe anyone has asked for that level of rigor, and I don't believe that anyone was ridiculed for not providing it.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

It looks like when you ask real questions no one has a answer.

Ok... how do you know it's working.
D.O. and ORP go up. Also, the small bubbles increase bouyancy of the particulates they are attached to and by means of floatation separation, are transported to the overflow and to the skimmer to be removed.

With particulates removed from the DT, you'll notice a cleaner water column. Which allows for better light penetration... the result is better growth and color from more apparent light and increase in PAR allowed to reach the coral.

"Common aquarium problems" is a generality especially those that are related to CO2 saturated water issues and detritus build up and impaction (in substrate) found typically in the display tank.

Lastly, "how do you make the effects better" than this method alone...

We utilize a few products such as ReefGrow.com, Fritz.com, and EcosystemAquarium.com products that work well together.

With clean and thinner mucus layer, it is deduced that there would be better absorption and better (speculative) utilization of available nutrients and minerals.

Good oxygen levels are of course important in the metabolic rate of corals, inverts, and fish, so it is accepted that higher Oxygen levels and ORP are ideal for captive reef systems.

Oxidation breaks down organics.

 

[Squamosa]

only asked for data

He has got data...and plenty of it but he chooses to ignore this and process only what suits his argument....sound familiar?

You can be as skeptical as you like but when the body of evidence grows so large against you every day,then you either have to capitulate and admit you might be wrong or get swept aside and be cast into the bin of history!

 

[Thales]

He has got data...and plenty of it but he chooses to ignore this and process only what suits his argument....sound familiar?

You can be as skeptical as you like but when the body of evidence grows so large against you every day,then you either have to capitulate and admit you might be wrong or get swept aside and be cast into the bin of history!

Wow. That's overly dramatic. My place in aquarium history is set. :D

What data do I got? I mean that isn't anecdote or your pH graph?

 

[Cruz_Arias]

We've shown ORP at 430 to 450 with no ozone and just effective aeration.

We've shown videos in other threads and the same explanation over and over that Richard is privy to, yet he keeps asking the same unproductive questions.

Somewhat reminiscent of a 2nd grader asking the perpetuating "Why? " regardless how much you explain. Then followed by "I don't get it"
Then followed by "Anecdotal"

Constructive questions get constructive answers.

And vice versa.

 

[Thales]

Lol

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Pretty much. LoL

 

[McMullen]

I am not privy to any information and this is the only thread on bubbling that I participate in. This thread did link to another thread with same topic. I didn't read through because the pages I breezed through were more of the same.

Being skeptical is healthy provided one also has an open mind. My mind is open and I've already stated that I believe the "anecdotal," reports that many fellow reefers have reported here.

Now, as far as data, ORP was increased, great!! Let's keep this simple though. On a tank with a skimmer, does bubbling provide aeration benefit? What about a skimmerless tank? Presumably it would! Makes since the particles being removed would also increase skimmate. Now stating PAR is increased from this........seems like a stretch! See, this is where my skeptic side comes out. if your tank has so much debri in the water column that PAR is reduced and is reduced so much that coral growth is impaired there are other husbandry issues to be delt with. I could be wrong! Please share some before and after PAR pics, but only with hobby grade equipment!

 

[malira]

Unproductive squabbling. I'm out.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

Thank you @Cruz_Arias.
If I may ask what products are you talking about if I may ask ? I did not know that there where other products involved was under the impression it was only bubbling.

 

[ChristopherKriens]

Reminds me of Nualgi.