My sps tank is crashing

[Staghorn]

It’s too bad this is happening, I’ve gone through it and lost a lot of sps. Based on that alk chart I would say that’s the culprit.

 

[BriansBrain]

Its a mix of issues. When you have Alk spike and the corals are struggling with no phosphate they tend to show signs of burn tips. I experimented the same issue in the past

I have had ALk spikes down and up with higher po4 with no issues to my sps.
This is my expirience

I have high-very high phosphate, not no phosphate. In your experience I should not have had burnt in your experience.

A 1.2 dkh rise over a month constitutes a spike?

I’d be curious if there’s actual research on burnt tips that’s not anecdotal.

Were you dosing or did you dose any kind of amino acid ?

nothing dosed other than alk, ca, mg, kalk.

 

[BriansBrain]

People dont realize that these higher levels of N and P are not natural and likely could be toxic, "although they're doing ok in those levels". It's hard to argue against it when Joe Blow DOES have some pretty colors, but the growth isn't there, or Joe Blow's corals aren't actively dying (yet). However, if you've been in this long enough (as I KNOW you have been, me too), there's just not enough justification (experience) to run these "acceptable" higher levels. In fact, it's just not needed.

This thread is a prime example, I feel, of Murphy's Law. Things compounding until it gives way: high N, P, low PH, high-ish Alk... corals and systems can probably deal with one of the listed issues, but NOT ALL at one time. Also, people shying away from running lower N and P levels, simply don't know how to do it, imo. Throughput, throughput, throughput. Heavy in, heavy out, leaving what is needed in the tank. Very different than feeding little and heavy export.

You get it.

I agree 100% and it took me losing years of work to find out the hard way. Though I never intentionally wanted to keep nutrients high, I never saw an issue, so I let it ride. Until it started to crash down. Thank you for your input and a needed slap in the right direction haha

 

[spsick]

Maybe if it were 1.2dkh over a day but I’ve never had an issue with alk drifting up and down a bit within safe range.

 

[CHSUB]

I think? we all understand Alk up or down itself didn’t cause the issue and the Alk likely bounced because the corals stopped growing. We all should understand that high po4 inhibits calcification, that is fact! Add low pH, high stress from high nutrients, use of GFO that may strip important minerals and some corals expel their zooxanthellae algae. Maybe some opportunistic critters start feeding on the SPS flesh….it is the “snow ball” effect. Pinpointing a single cause is both wrong and impossible.

Imo, OP, is going in the right direction:

I agree 100% and it took me losing years of work to find out the hard way. Though I never intentionally wanted to keep nutrients high, I never saw an issue, so I let it ride. Until it started to crash down. Thank you for your input and a needed slap in the right direction haha

 

[bubbgee]

Look into Witch Hazel treatment:

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Thanks!

 

[eggie]

I have high-very high phosphate, not no phosphate. In your experience I should not have had burnt in your experience.

A 1.2 dkh rise over a month constitutes a spike?

I’d be curious if there’s actual research on burnt tips that’s not anecdotal.

nothing dosed other than alk, ca, mg, kalk.

Do you have a picture of your Hanna Phosphate checker. Does your read in ppm or ppb ?

 

[BriansBrain]

Do you have a picture of your Hanna Phosphate checker. Does your read in ppm or ppb ?

phosphate ulr so it’s ppm

 

[eggie]

Do you have a picture of your Hanna Phosphate checker. Does your read in ppm or ppb ?

phosphate ulr so it’s ppm

There 2 Checkers both Ultralow one say ppm and the other says ppb on the top cover

 

[Troylee]

I think? we all understand Alk up or down itself didn’t cause the issue and the Alk likely bounced because the corals stopped growing. We all should understand that high po4 inhibits calcification, that is fact! Add low pH, high stress from high nutrients, use of GFO that may strip important minerals and some corals expel their zooxanthellae algae. Maybe some opportunistic critters start feeding on the SPS flesh….it is the “snow ball” effect. Pinpointing a single cause is both wrong and impossible.

Imo, OP, is going in the right direction:

Is it a fact? I’m not buying it! I’m running my nutrients high and getting amazing growth and color.. guess I’m Joe blow lol.. my sticks look amazing…

 

[BriansBrain]

There 2 Checkers both Ultralow one say ppm and the other says ppb on the top cover

I’m aware. Phosphate ulr is ppm (like I have), phosphorus ulr is ppb.

So my phosphates were 0.6ppm. I should’ve added the units of measurement in the posting to alleviate confusion

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

Is it a fact? I’m not buying it! I’m running my nutrients high and getting amazing growth and color.. guess I’m Joe blow lol.. my sticks look amazing…

I run about the same and my acros are also going gangbuster.

I'm by far not an expert, but I like to equate running high nutrients to if you supercharge an engine without upgrading other components like valves, cam, cylinders, intake, etc. Going to end up blowing something up pretty quickly and end up destroying the engine.

 

[386reeftrader]

Didn't read through all the responses, but I'd say your issue now is bacterial. If you are in the process of transferring tanks anyhow, then I'd suggest treating the entire tank.

 

[Troylee]

I run about the same and my acros are also going gangbuster.

I'm by far not an expert, but I like to equate running high nutrients to if you supercharge an engine without upgrading other components like valves, cam, cylinders, intake, etc. Going to end up blowing something up pretty quickly and end up destroying the engine.

That’s how I feel about them.. I used to run my alk at 8 and n03 around 5 and my p04 barely detectable.. I started bumping my alk up for these grow out contest and experienced some stn from low phosphates so I upped those to .3 and running nitrates at 20 with my alk at 11 and my tank took off! Is what it is.. both grow corals very well but I got better colors and growth with higher nutrients in my case.

 

[CHSUB]

Is it a fact? I’m not buying it! I’m running my nutrients high and getting amazing growth and color.. guess I’m Joe blow lol.. my sticks look amazing…

I won’t quote the hundreds or thousands of scientific articles and studies, the countless expert reefers, or the numerous TOTM of the past….by yes it is fact high po4 inhibits calcification.
Not implying one can not have a successful reef aquarium with high nutrients…

I will quote the RtoR expert chemist, “The first is that phosphate is often a limiting nutrient for algae growth, so when elevated it can permit excessive growth of undesirable algae (potentially including the zooxanthellae inside of corals, turning them brown). The second is that it can directly inhibit calcification by some corals and coralline algae”

 

[Troylee]

I won’t quote the hundreds or thousands of scientific articles and studies, the countless expert reefers, or the numerous TOTM of the past….by yes it is fact high po4 inhibits calcification.
Not implying one can not have a successful reef aquarium with high nutrients…

I will quote the RtoR expert chemist, “The first is that phosphate is often a limiting nutrient for algae growth, so when elevated it can permit excessive growth of undesirable algae (potentially including the zooxanthellae inside of corals, turning them brown). The second is that it can directly inhibit calcification by some corals and coralline algae”

And that’s fine… I know we’ve been told that for many years but I’ll never say that it’s facts! It can’t be a fact if it’s been proven wrong multiple times..there is several tank of the months with super high nutrients just not as many and with lower. It can and does work both ways.. as for undesirable algae idk I’ve never had algae in my tanks and still don’t with .3 phosphates.

 

[Troylee]

5 weeks growth with 20 nitrates and .3 phosphates. It’s calcifying just fine.

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

I won’t quote the hundreds or thousands of scientific articles and studies, the countless expert reefers, or the numerous TOTM of the past….by yes it is fact high po4 inhibits calcification.
Not implying one can not have a successful reef aquarium with high nutrients…

I will quote the RtoR expert chemist, “The first is that phosphate is often a limiting nutrient for algae growth, so when elevated it can permit excessive growth of undesirable algae (potentially including the zooxanthellae inside of corals, turning them brown). The second is that it can directly inhibit calcification by some corals and coralline algae”

From what I have read, the portion about high phosphate is absolutely correct in prohibiting calcification, but only in certain contexts.

What I was suggesting earlier with the remark about the engine was touching on this though. High nutrients by themself can absolutely he a hindrance to the tank and cause major issues, if the rest of the tank isn't supercharged as well. People who run high-tech planted freshwater aquariums do this exact same thing.

Acropora, can still thrive in nutrient-rich systems if you have a supercharged microbiome as well. That bacteria in conjunction with high nutrients and all other traces required is what supercharges the entire engine and allows for the high nutrients and high alk. This is also riding a pretty thin line in that if one goes out of whack, the engine blows up.

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

To add another point - this is the whole point of carbon dosing. Supercharging the bacteria to convert the nutrients into more readily available forms of energy that can be more readily used by the coral.

Here is a good scientific article touching on this: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2095809922005653

 

[CHSUB]

Like I also said, many ways to success…however, Ime and backed by research, are that corals do better with available nutrients but at levels near ocean reefs or slightly higher.

Examples: my tank from 2000, nice and I was proud of it….however years later I realized stonies didn’t grow too fast if barely, po4 was ~>.5.

My recent tank which is smaller but very similar in terms of filters and management, however one key difference is po4 is ~ .00-.05. Stonies growth is lighting fast as compared to above. Approximately 10 months:

Finally my tank in the middle years from ~2009 to 2017 used all methods including carbon dosing, sulfur denitrification, refuge, giant powerful skimmer, daily AWC was more difficult than the other two with less success. I believe because I pushed nutrients, specifically po4, too low and corals suffered. However no algae problems including dinoflagellate. This tank, imo, is an example of a system with near ocean levels of inorganic nutrients that lacked particular nutrients that the ocean has in abundance because of over filtration.

Important note is that hobby testing could not distinguish different levels of no3 because all three examples where below hobby testing resolution with Salifert. As I have never had a reef aquarium with hobby test kit measurable no3.