Nitrate Issue Turned Emergency

[ccombs]

I am terrible at the color charts. The titration kits you are very simply. For example the red sea alkalinity test you take 5ml of water and then drip in the reagent. For each drop the alk. Is 1 dkh. Then you just count your drops until the water changes colors. It's usually a very noticeable change. Like pink to blue or blue yo green.

In the API kit the dkh test is a titration test. The interesting thing is that is goes from a blue to yellow. Well, at around 11dkh it starts to change colors, but took another 9 drops before it hit the correct color.

When my dkh was around 9 where it use to sit, it was a dark blue for 8 drops and then it would turn yellow in an instant on the 9th. I am wondering if I am just outside the testing range or so close to the top that the chemistry doesn't work at that point.

 

[ccombs]

So from now on only adjust alkalinity based off of your KH test results (you won’t have to add anything for a long time probably). Don’t worry about pH for now, that’s way down on the list of things to worry about right now.

You won’t need to add another chamber to your RODI you will just have to swap the current carbon filter with one designed specifically for Chloramines. Like this spectrapure filter https://www.spectrapure.com/product...n-block-filter-1-micron-10-inch-l-cf-cr-1-10/

Hmm, good to know, and yeah, I am trying to focus on whatever my large issue is here. I am hopeful that when I find that, everything else will start to fall into place.

I am using the aquatic life RODI that has the twist in units. I am wondering if I have a faulty cartridge or something. The chlorine test will help me figure that out when I get back.

I really appreciate how much knowledge you have shared!

 

[Rick.45cal]

The salifert KH test is better than the API it has a higher resolution each drop is a smaller increment in carbonate hardness, the color change is from bluish green to pink so its super easy to see. The instructions also have a higher range where you should be able to accurately determine how high your alkalinity really is.

I like the Red Sea phosphate test because I think it’s easier to read the differences in colors at lower levels than any of the other’s I have tried (I haven’t tried them all though)

 

[ccombs]

The salifert KH test is better than the API it has a higher resolution each drop is a smaller increment in carbonate hardness, the color change is from bluish green to pink so its super easy to see. The instructions also have a higher range where you should be able to accurately determine how high your alkalinity really is.

I like the Red Sea phosphate test because I think it’s easier to read the differences in colors at lower levels than any of the other’s I have tried (I haven’t tried them all though)

I just looked up the Salifert tests and while they are more expensive, I planned on this being an expensive hobby going into it so that is why I stayed with a smaller tank I knew I could responsibly handle while I learned about the costs of operating a tank myself.

In the long term the tests will last awhile so it is worth it to me. Who knew something so peaceful to look at could be so stressful ;Bookworm;Wideyed

 

[Hemmdog]

I just looked up the Salifert tests and while they are more expensive, I planned on this being an expensive hobby going into it so that is why I stayed with a smaller tank I knew I could responsibly handle while I learned about the costs of operating a tank myself.

In the long term the tests will last awhile so it is worth it to me. Who knew something so peaceful to look at could be so stressful ;Bookworm;Wideyed

Should of asked about the test kits from the start... api is horrible my friend. From the sound of your alk test your alk is at 11, you read it when the color changes, not like complete solid different color.

 

[Lasse]

Also a quick note. We are all throwing a lot of information at you very fast. Do not go and impliment a bunch of methods to fix your tank at once because you could make it worse. Pick a method that you think will work, try it out, and give it a few days. If you see no results then move on.

This is a very wise advice and are valid for my post too

I set down and try to do a write up of your issues. Because I´m love to go to the basic - many things happens in the thread while I did the writing - you have get a lot of good advices in this thread that in some way will overide my write up. But I have used 3 hours - I will publish it anway - it will give a solid background: here we goo

Let us try to sort it out. The acute toxicity of NO3 is very, very low and the symptoms you describe is valid for nitrite poising – I do not know anyone that have described nitrate poising because I have never seen any valid description of that. What I have seen of NO3 sub lethal effects in fish farming is more of a lethargic behaviour and very bad appetite. This has been among European eel´s in fresh water and levels well above 400 ppm NO3.

How will it come that this behaviour you describe have been connected to Nitrate (NO3) instead of nitrite (NO2). Let us see how the nitrate measurements work. All – for me known methods – does nor measure NO3 – indeed they measure NO2 and your colour scale report it back to you as ppm NO3. When you start your measurements – you add a powder containing a typical metal (often cadmium) that convert a part of your samples NO3 into NO2. After a certain time, x amount of the NO3 is converted into NO2 and you compare this with your colour chart, and you get a result. Because the whole conversion process is time depended – there is a multiple inbuild in the colour chart – often between 50 and 100 x. This means that if the multiple is 50 – and the test read 1 ppm NO2 – the colour chart report 50 ppm NO3 to you. As you understand – this method demand that your real NO2 level in the sample is zero when you start the test – otherwise you will get false result.

Further NO3 is a product of biological conversation of NH3/NH4 -> NO2 -> NO3 – there is no direct storage or secret hidings of NO3 in a normal tank (if you do not ad pure NaNO3, KNO3 or other NO3 containing molecules) – hence a rise of NO3 from 40 into 160 for one night is not likely at all. However – a rise of NO2 between 0.2 -0.4 into 0.8 – 1.6 ppm during one night is – if not very likely – possible if you have a huge NH3/NH4 input and a very fast working bacteria crew for the first step NH3/NH4 -> NO2.

You say that you will not measure any NO2 at all and that confuse me.

My first advise will therefor be that you get a NO2 test kit that is well known to work in saltwater – you do not tell which you use for the moment – if you 100 % trust this brand – that´s fine for me – but try to valid the readings with another brand

Let sort out the NO2 toxicity. The way that NO2 poising creatures with gills is that NO2 is taken up through certain channels (or ion pumps) from the water into the bloodstream – there it will form an insoluble product together with the bloods hemoglobulin. This product will not be able to take up oxygen and the creature will suffer of oxygen depletion. Hence the symptoms of heavy breathing and so on. However free chloride ions in the water will block the uptake channels (or ion pumps) and no NO2 will be released into the bloodstream of the organism. It has been showed that even very low amounts of chlorides (Cl ions) will block NO2 uptake – around 70 – 80 ppm is enough up to NO2 levels around 1 ppm (80 ppm Cl ions corresponding to around one tablespoon of NaCl into 100 litres of water) There have been some investigation done about desirable relationship between NO2 and Cl ions and normally the relationship is around 40 – 160 times higher Cl ions concentration than NO2 concentration. Saltwater normally contains over 19 000 ppm chlorides. Hence NO2 can been seen as normally of no interest in salt water toxicity.

NO3 and NO2 – nontoxic – where will we stand now? The first product NH3/NH4 - which is secreted via the gills – can be toxic, very toxic. In the US you talk about ammonia and that include both forms NH4 and NH3, in Europe we distinguish two forms - ammoniac (NH3) and ammonium (NH4). This is very handsome when we shall try to understand the toxicity of this complex NH3/NH4. NH3 is a gas and NH4 is its ion. In every water they will exist in a relationship there each compounds amount depends on temperature, pH and altitude. It is a percental relationship. The most important is the pH depending nature. In a little bit unscientific approach, you can say that as more free H ions that exist – the more NH4 will be present. It means – low pH -> more NH4 (ammonium) - lesser NH3 (ammoniac). If the pH changes within a given content of NH3/NH4 – their relationship will change immediately.

At 25 degrees C and pH around 7 the percental part of NH3 is around 0.5 % and the rest (99.5%) is NH4. The same temperature and pH 7.5 -> 1.8 % NH3 and 98.2 % N4; same temperature – pH 8 -> 5.4 % NH3 and 94.6 % NH4; same temperature ph 8.5 -> 15 % as NH3 and 85 % as NH4.

NH4 is non-toxic up in very high values but NH3 is highly toxic in rather low concentrations. The generally accepted rule of thumb is that un-ionized ammonia in excess of 0.02 mg/L is potentially sublethal toxic, though this may vary slightly with species of fish. There is some contradicting investigations too – indicating that at least some fish can tolerate higher levels of long term exposure. Lethal concentrations can vary a lot but – in general – it is higher than we normally think. I think that there has been some confusion between sublethal and lethal levels. The lethal concentrations have been shown to range between 0.2 – over 1 ppm NH3 (ammoniac) (LC50 48 hours -> 50 % of the population dead after 48 hour). If we play safe – a short time exposure of 0.1 ppm NH3 maybe be safe for most of our fishes but long-time exposure should be as low as possible and certainly not exceed 0.02 NH3.

Our normal test equipment gives us the result as combine NH3 and NH4 – only a few analyse NH3 solely – The Seachem ammonia alert is one of the few as I know – personally – I have no experiences of it but many people rely on it. However – with the normal equipment – you must know your pH and temperature in order not to panic. This link gives you a very good calculator in order to see the real NH3 levels at certain NH3/NH4 values, pH and temperature. Note – the alarm is for sublethal effects – not lethal.

Further – IMO – many of the normal tests show 0.2 ppm as standard – even if the real value is zero.

Sorry – this was only the introduction . I´m rather sure that your problem is NOT a nitrogen problem. Your readings of high nitrate can be caused of another compound that interfere with the test


The thing that worries me most is your white stones after 6 months – it looks like a heavy metal (read copper) problem. What’s talking against this is the surviving of your CUC. You have a high alkalinity – can that precipitate CaCO3 in daily way and hinder algae growth – I do not know.


The way I would handle this for the moment (and remember my first sentence in this post )

Stop every dosage of whatever – however with the NoPox I´m not sure – you say it looks better with this – maybe you should go done in dosage first – you decide. Stop using GFO for the moment

Bring down the KH to around 7-8 (You give no idea how you measure alkalinity – I assume you the result in KH – not mg/l or meqv)

KYHD (Keep Your Hand Dry)

Check if you have some pollutants in your inside air – use outside air if you do not have a manure heap outside . With pollutants indoors I am very concern for use of air freshers and scented candles.

One more question – have you done any repairs of the aquarium using Silicon with anti-mold agents? Something is killing your algae and I think that it is very important to figure that out. I think (and remember the first sentence again ) that your white stones is the key in order to understand what’s happen


I´m sorry for long post but I felt it necessary to sort this out properly


Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

I ad the link that I forgott :)

This is a good link too

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Traestephens4536]

Following since I own the same tank

 

[AspiringReefer]

Honestly it’s probably already been said however. Add some bacteria starter to your tank. The issue as far as I can see is it’s a brand new tank and needs to be cycled. The rock doesn’t have nitrifying bacteria colonizing it yet causing ammonia to be there. Also I wouldn’t buy anything else until it’s stable. More than likely you just have to do bigger water changes while it’s new. I would definitely just give your tank time to settle in. The other thing could be is if your nitrate test kit gets cold it often tests really high even though it isn’t. Go to your local fish store and have them confirm your tests. I had a similar issue when first starting. If your inverts aren’t dead yet I would assume your nitrates are lower than you think.

 

[Lasse]

Honestly it’s probably already been said however. Add some bacteria starter to your tank. The issue as far as I can see is it’s a brand new tank and needs to be cycled. The rock doesn’t have nitrifying bacteria colonizing it yet causing ammonia to be there. Also I wouldn’t buy anything else until it’s stable. More than likely you just have to do bigger water changes while it’s new. I would definitely just give your tank time to settle in. The other thing could be is if your nitrate test kit gets cold it often tests really high even though it isn’t. Go to your local fish store and have them confirm your tests. I had a similar issue when first starting. If your inverts aren’t dead yet I would assume your nitrates are lower than you think.

Generally - your right - but this tank is 6 months old - it is something else that´s wrong

Sincerely Lasse

 

[AspiringReefer]

Generally - your right - but this tank is 6 months old - it is something else that´s wrong

Sincerely Lasse

It’s six months old and still had no algae on the rocks at all? This tells me maybe you have cloramines in the water this could be a further issue. Do you use DI resin in your RO water? This could be more of an issue than you know.

 

[Lasse]

Its not my tank and he/she have a CUC that´s going well and no issue with them. Please read the whole thread - IMO it is not likely it is a chloramine issue. From his post 59

My RODI has a sediment block, then a carbon filter, then the RO membrane, then the DI resin. Are you thinking I need a secondary carbon filter?

Further - in a earlier post the OP stated that the tank works well during the time he was only running tape water. Someone suggest that it could be accumulated chloramine issue but IMO - it is no likely the issue

But it easy to overcome - just ad some vitamin C to the water - half a table spoon in that small tank it enough. You can use the same trick in your buckets with RODI water too. The rest will be a little NH3/NH4 and chlorids

Sincerely Lasse

 

[BeejReef]

Very sorry to hear of your troubles. For what it's worth, I commend you on a very patient and disciplined approach. I guess sometimes even the right choices can have bad outcomes. If you keep up that level of effort, you'll surely have a show-stopping tank very soon. Very odd though that you'd be seeing ammonia on a tank that far along. Seems like even a fish cycle with no bacteria in a bottle would be well and truly cycled by now... at least as far as nitrogen.

Totally guessing, guessing, guessing (just for you to bounce around in your brain) but the only change has been the water to an approach that, otherwise, reads like a recipe for success that only 5% have the patience and discipline to follow. Conditioned tap water, as I understand it, is sub-optimal. You rectified that by going RODI. Is it a brand new RODI or used? Can you check your municipality's water quality report. Maybe unwittingly replaced a sub-par water source with a faulty one?

The fact that water changes reduces your nitrates is confounding and eliminates your RODI as the nitrate source. Other posters made real interesting points about Chloramine breaking down to nitrogen, which would explain lowered... then rising levels.

Two mysteries in one, IMHO. What's killing your fish if 160 Nitrate is rarely lethal, and where are these excessive Nitrates coming from?

 

[SeaDweller]

The salifert KH test is better than the API it has a higher resolution each drop is a smaller increment in carbonate hardness, the color change is from bluish green to pink so its super easy to see. The instructions also have a higher range where you should be able to accurately determine how high your alkalinity really is.

I like the Red Sea phosphate test because I think it’s easier to read the differences in colors at lower levels than any of the other’s I have tried (I haven’t tried them all though)

I think the true end point for salifert dKh is lavender. At certain angles in light you can see hints of pink in it. One extra drop for sure makes it slightly pinkish, but shooting for true pink is overshooting dKh I think.

 

[Kmadden]

I think the true end point for salifert dKh is lavender. At certain angles in light you can see hints of pink in it. One extra drop for sure makes it slightly pinkish, but shooting for true pink is overshooting dKh I think.

I use the red sea kit. It goes from blue to green. With yellow showing you added to much reagent.

 

[SeaDweller]

I use the red sea kit. It goes from blue to green. With yellow showing you added to much reagent.

The pro kit?

OP: how big is your tank? If all you have is fish and a few easy corals, I’d do 50-75% water change and do that again in a few days to a week to get whatever is going on with the water out.

I had 200+ ppm NO3 and no fish suffered, and that was 2 years of being lazy. If your readings shoot Up that fast after stopping nopox something is wrong, as stated before.

I’d do larger WC and see what happens.

 

[Eagle_Steve]

First off welcome to R2R, and sorry to hear about the tank.

I see you are in Nashville. Depending on which part, we have some good LFS that will test your water for you for free. Just as a fail safe, have you thought about grabbing some and carrying it for a second opinion. I know this may not solve the issue, but if the results from the secondary tests show the same as yours, the process of deduction becomes a lot easier.

Also, if the makeup water is in question, you can have that tested at most of the LFS here. A few of the shops can test for some of the metals. All can test the TDS as well.

But I do agree with Lasse on checking for other environmental factors. A simple Glade Plugin has killed a tank of mine before. Oils get in air, oils get in tank, oils wreak havok.

Best thing to do is to get everything issue wise typed out, review it and see if there are any that are similar. Then post a good little rundown of what all has happened. This will also establish a time line if you can put dates to things. For example, this fish died on XX-XX-XXXX, then nitrates spiked on XX-XX-XXXX. Of course this is an example, but you can use all things you have noticed and get them in a time line.

From a timeline, the people here can look for a common issue and possibly find the start of the issue.

But either way, hang in there. The tank is not packed with corals and a ton of fish. This makes getting things straightened out a lot easier. If worst case a reboot is needed, it is also a lot simpler. Even if the rock has to be trashed for contaminants, do not fret about it. I have a ton of cycled rock or dry rock you can have lol. Even some clean dry sand if needed.

One way or another, we can get this worked out. That is what I love about this forum and the local reef club here in the Nashville area.

 

[Reefer1978]

As others have already suggested, I would ditch the API test kits and get something better. I ran into issues with API myself in the past, where brand new test kits were reporting incorrectly and I lost some fish. I personally use Red Sea, they worked well for me.

How much and how often are you feeding? Apologies if this was covered and I missed it.

 

[Reefer1978]

I also wouldn't worry too much about pH of 7.8, my tanks runs lower than that during winter months.

 

[Lasse]

The pro kit?

I use that and it is like described. Rather good I think.

Sincerely Lasse