Nitrite Toxicity

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Most people want a healthy aquarium. That's all. Use you knowledge to help. Just say not to add animals to a tank that is in the nitrite stage of the cycle. Many will read you "research " and think they can add anytime without problems.

I try to avoid repeating misinformation.

 

[Duncan62]

Absolutely I used those numbers in my argument. It would be great if you provided some different numbers and the experiment that justified them. Those numbers are hard, scientific data for the LC50 that justifies my claim that the 1 ppm that might be seen in a reef tank is not likely a problem. That is how regulators set tox limits. They look for effects vs concentration, then set a limit well below the lowest level known to observe an undesirable effect.

I certainly did not say that one should run a tank at the LC50 of an organism. lol

You implied it's possible. Nitrite is acidic and toxic. Fact. It rarely produced in established tanks at toxic levels. Once again. NEW TANKS. Test Nitrite before adding expensive livestock. It's been a well followed practice since the beginning. You advocate for an approach that doesn't consider it..

 

[Duncan62]

I try to avoid repeating misinformation.

Misinformation?

 

[Duncan62]

Misinformation?

Truth and pragmatic approach. You should try it. Get you head out of that book. You might see your not as perfect as you think.

 

[fachatga]

You implied it's possible. Nitrite is acidic and toxic. Fact. It rarely produced in established tanks at toxic levels. Once again. NEW TANKS. Test Nitrite before adding expensive livestock. It's been a well followed practice since the beginning. You advocate for an approach that doesn't consider it..

I’m still confused why you think nitrite in new tanks is toxic. Something you’ve observed with fish dying? I think we would all like to see some sort of actual example or basis for your arguments instead of just saying your tank is healthy so it must be true.

 

[Lasse]

Such fish are beset by lots of stresses, such as ammonia, being trapped in a shipping bag, removed from the water, etc.

Exactly my opinion - why when add a possible stress moment with nitrite to this? Taking care of the ammonia and nitrite is easy thing to achieve before adding livestock in a tank that is cycled with techniques that give a high ammonia input in the start. Or start the tank with a low ammonia input techniques,

The stress in the bag - out of water any many other things we can´t change so much - but the nitrification cycle we can handle.

Once again - that something is toxic does not means that it kill directly and of all the stress moments we have when we stock a new tank had importance for the outcome. Let us fix the things we can fix and lower the total stress in these moments.

It is not a question of killing fish or not - it is a question of decent husbandry with living things

To recommend anyone to add new livestock to a tank that content above 0.5 ppm NO2 is not good husbandry IMO.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
How could one dose nitrite? What chemical could I use to explore this?

 

[Chrisv.]

I will interject the quick comment that high NO2 can throw off NO3 test kits. This can be corrected for with some arithmetic, to a point (depending on how high the NO2 is), which is the only real reason to measure nitrite when establishing biological filtration.

 

[brandon429]

Team

lets do a group initiated search to check Duncan’s claims on loss rates

The new tanks forum here or any site has the most dry start cycles


scour the web, link here five examples of fish loss during high nitrite phasing which a cycling chart shows to be any time under thirty days wait, that’s the going referee for averages anyone can agree upon since all cycling charts set that approximation


we need five examples for a mere pattern start, bad acclimation also kills fish in new and matured tanks, we need only five early loss proofs to get started, link some loss threads. Nobody gets to down the cycling charts either, ammonia control by day ten tests out very very accurate in seneye cycles which now offer thousands of supporting measures so we wouldn’t begin by stating nitrite control by day thirty is unreasonable


post loss threads so we can assess if the cycle killed the animals in the first month. Five links of dead fish threads.


Lasse posted using digital gear that nitrite runs in the hundredths ppm conversion rate in a post cycle display, it’s not zero, so everyone and their non digital test kits are dealing in partial measures and we can see how well thats working in ammonia assessments. We need the actual dead fish during cycle posts to measure the ends on the loss continuum for new cycles, I claim there is not such a pattern.


skeptics, help Duncan provide backup proofs, five examples of cycle kills. Duncan isn’t the only person with the concerns so let’s work and search on behalf of the traditional cycling concerns.

 

[Duncan62]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
How could one dose nitrite? What chemical could I use to explore this?

You're a chemist. Figure it out.

 

[Duncan62]

I will interject the quick comment that high NO2 can throw off NO3 test kits. This can be corrected for with some arithmetic, to a point (depending on how high the NO2 is), which is the only real reason to measure nitrite when establishing biological filtration.

Agree.

 

[Duncan62]

Team

lets do a group initiated search to check Duncan’s claims on loss rates

The new tanks forum here or any site has the most dry start cycles


scour the web, link here five examples of fish loss during high nitrite phasing which a cycling chart shows to be any time under thirty days wait, that’s the going referee for averages anyone can agree upon since all cycling charts set that approximation


we need five examples for a mere pattern start, bad acclimation also kills fish in new and matured tanks, we need only five early loss proofs to get started, link some loss threads. Nobody gets to down the cycling charts either, ammonia control by day ten tests out very very accurate in seneye cycles which now offer thousands of supporting measures so we wouldn’t begin by stating nitrite control by day thirty is unreasonable


post loss threads so we can assess if the cycle killed the animals in the first month. Five links of dead fish threads.


Lasse posted using digital gear that nitrite runs in the hundredths ppm conversion rate in a post cycle display, it’s not zero, so everyone and their non digital test kits are dealing in partial measures and we can see how well thats working in ammonia assessments. We need the actual dead fish during cycle posts to measure the ends on the loss continuum for new cycles, I claim there is not such a pattern.


skeptics, help Duncan provide backup proofs, five examples of cycle kills. Duncan isn’t the only person with the concerns so let’s work and search on behalf of the traditional cycling concerns.

Leave this chemistry lesson and read the posts here. I can't believe anyone can think nitrite is never a problem in NEW TANKS. There are more than 5. Lol

 

[brandon429]

Duncan,

that’s a freshwater assessment from a bottle bac sales company, you took first random search return and posted in a serious chemistry discussion.

the distinction from a marine aquarium is conveniently missing from that deep web reference

Lasses posts are from books on his shelf, prior thought and study on the matter.

 

[Cell]

Is it reasonable to assume that sublethal toxic affects would have some sort of physical manifestation or measurable negative effect on the specimen at all?

And if no measurable ill effects are observed, is it reasonable to assume it's safe?

Perhaps this analogy applies: Alcohol poisoning can kill you. Yet, a small amount of certain types of alcohol have shown to promote good health. Just because something is lethal at a certain level, does not necessarily mean it is harmful at a lower level.

 

[brandon429]

Can you post five web threads showing cycling kills Duncan that will be helpful outcomes of these collective harms to see. Post a few, take time to search some recent ones out and post

 

[Duncan62]

Exactly my opinion - why when add a possible stress moment with nitrite to this? Taking care of the ammonia and nitrite is easy thing to achieve before adding livestock in a tank that is cycled with techniques that give a high ammonia input in the start. Or start the tank with a low ammonia input techniques,

The stress in the bag - out of water any many other things we can´t change so much - but the nitrification cycle we can handle.

Once again - that something is toxic does not means that it kill directly and of all the stress moments we have when we stock a new tank had importance for the outcome. Let us fix the things we can fix and lower the total stress in these moments.

It is not a question of killing fish or not - it is a question of decent husbandry with living things

To recommend anyone to add new livestock to a tank that content above 0.5 ppm NO2 is not good husbandry IMO.

Sincerely Lasse

Can we all agree that a thriving tank is the goal? There's so many ways to achieve it. They all include not exposing animals to toxins is possible.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
How could one dose nitrite? What chemical could I use to explore this?

Sodium nitrite. Food grade is readily available.

In fact, a few folks have, by mistake, when purchasing sodium nitrate for dosing.

 

[Cell]

Leave this chemistry lesson and read the posts here. I can't believe anyone can think nitrite is never a problem in NEW TANKS. There are more than 5. Lol

There are other more significant and likely culprits for "problems" in new tanks. What evidence is there that nitrite is the issue as opposed to something else?

 

[Garf]

Is it reasonable to assume that sublethal toxic affects would have some sort of physical manifestation or measurable negative effect on the specimen at all?

And if no measurable ill effects are observed, is it reasonable to assume it's safe?

Perhaps this analogy applies: Alcohol poisoning can kill you. Yet, a small amount of certain types of alcohol have shown to promote good health. Just because something is lethal at a certain level, does not necessarily mean it is harmful at a lower level.

Everything is lethal, given enough.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I will interject the quick comment that high NO2 can throw off NO3 test kits. This can be corrected for with some arithmetic, to a point (depending on how high the NO2 is), which is the only real reason to measure nitrite when establishing biological filtration.

That is certainly true. If you want to accurately measure nitrate during cycling, it is necessary to measure nitrite. :)