Nitrites stuck above 2ppm for 2 weeks - cycle stuck?

[RaymondNoodles]

90% water change will get you close to 5ppm based upon your 50ppm nitrates in solution now.

50% water change results in 25ppm

doing a second 50% Water charge =12.5ppm
A third subsequent 50% would yield ~6.25%

so 1 90% wc will save a tankful of water and get your nitrates nearer to your 5ppm target.
Hth.

And stop feeding the tank, it’s cycled

As mentioned a couple times already in this thread, with nitrite present, nitrate readings are falsely inflated.

 

[Tamberav]

I started cycling my 57g tank on 8/27 (19 days ago) with Brightwell Microbacter quick start and start XLM. I used dry rinsed sand and cured/dried marco rocks (curing was probably overkill but I wanted to make sure there were little to no phosphates. After soaking in RODI water for a few days, phosphate was .02.I let the rocks dry and spent the next month building the aquascape. Ammonia measured 2ppm on day 1 and gradually dropped to 0ppm on day 9. Nitrite gradually increased to 2-5ppm by day 9 where it reached it's peak and appears to have been stuck there ever since. So nitrite has been at least 2ppm for 10 days. I have 2 test kits for nitrite/ammonia - RedSea and API. RedSea only measures Nitrite up to 1ppm and I measured well beyond 1ppm since 9/3. With API it's very difficult to tell a difference between 2ppm and 5ppm, but I believe it's been somewhere between 2 and 5ppm.

Microbacter claims a typical cycle using this method is about 7 days.

On 9/8 (day 11) I added about 20 MarinePure Ceramic Biomedia 1 1/2 Spheres that were in the sump of my 20g established tank for a couple months to the sump of the new tank with hopes of adding some beneficial bacteria since I had used all of the Start XLM.

Per Brightewell's instructions:
"Although product can withstand elevated temperatures for short periods of time (a few days), for best longevity and highest potency, keep below 80°F and if possible, it will be best kept refrigerated at 50°F to much prolong shelf life."

For 1 month I stored the Start XLM around 68 degrees. Not sure who keeps their fridge at 50 degrees so that wasn't much of a feasible option for me, so I figured storing it in the basement which stays below 70 degrees with the AC on in the summer was the best option. Sounds like this is within reason although perhaps not optimal to prolong the life of the bacteria.

Is the cycle stuck? Should I do a water change? Leave it alone? Here are the most recent test results (ammonia is zero with both test kits).

Cycles do not get stuck.

It takes longer for the bacteria to develop in sufficient number to turn nitrite into nitrate than ammonia to nitrite.

Your tank is going perfect.

Nitrite isn’t very toxic in salt water. Fish would not be bothered by it.

I would just do a large water change and move on.

 

[brandon429]

api is a funny thing

chemists can wield it like thors hammer to make all kinds of proofs


laypersons despise api, just not in nitrite threads, it becomes the infallible test kit (bc it's the only one we have pretty much)


we all tend to accept/deny test kit accuracy in interesting ways, with interesting biases. nitrite is so neutral to a cycle however, we don't even need to own the kit.


check any poll: nitrite is the #1 most unneeded to know param in all of reefing, and ammonia is second.


*why would something as impactful as ammonia be #2 on the most not needed to know list (check any forum poll on the matter by page 5)

because a cycling chart already lined it out for us. drops by day ten, never comes back up again.

u need to be studying fish disease preps, that's where 100% of the losses in cycling occur, long after the actual bioload carry cycle completed.

 

[Spare time]

Either way, pretty much all bacteria being propagated are benefitting. Some bacteria cannot process nitrates directly and need and organic carbon source or nitrites. However, with an item as large as a shrimp, nitrites and then hopefully nitrates are going to be produced as a result of decomposition and biological processing as well, which fills that niche. I like to look at the ocean as an example of how things work in practicality, picturing whale falls, lots of fish poo and such and not so much pure nitrates, ammonia and carbon being added in our quasi-laboratory settings.

In the ocean, you still find ammonia, nitrate, etc. There isn't really a pure or un-pure version. Its simply ammonia. Dosing ammonia just skips the step of matter decomposition (or fish releasing ammonia out their gills)

 

[Crustaceon]

In the ocean, you still find ammonia, nitrate, etc. There isn't really a pure or un-pure version. Its simply ammonia. Dosing ammonia just skips the step of matter decomposition (or fish releasing ammonia out their gills)

I don't think it's as simple as dosing ammonia, nitrate and expecting bacteria to successfully colonize every tank. If that were the case, every person who tried this method would be successful, which obviously doesn't work out that way as indicated by this comment thread. I think there's more to it than that.

 

[TrottingReef]

Can not agree more with the people whoa re telling you your tank is cycled. You don't need to feed it. Do a 90% water change and call it good. I was freaked out about the same things kept listening to different people try this try that it took a few good old timers to tell me flat out to stop worrying about my nitrite levels or nitrate that the tank was cycled and to stop messing with it. I did one last large WC then left it alone for 2 weeks and everything balanced out perfect.

 

[Crustaceon]

Can not agree more with the people whoa re telling you your tank is cycled. You don't need to feed it. Do a 90% water change and call it good. I was freaked out about the same things kept listening to different people try this try that it took a few good old timers to tell me flat out to stop worrying about my nitrite levels or nitrate that the tank was cycled and to stop messing with it. I did one last large WC then left it alone for 2 weeks and everything balanced out perfect.

As I see it, if the tank clouds up and clears up, it's cycled. End of discussion and I don't care what our resident "scientific community" thinks needs to be satisfied here. If it's done, it's done. The thing is, I don't know if OP's tank ever clouded up during the process, indicating a bacterial bloom, which is what I personally look for in a successfully cycled tank... out of probably a few dozen successful tanks I've started. If this wasn't ever the case with this tank, for peace of mind, by all means, throw some food in and cause another bacterial bloom. There's no livestock at stake here and within a week or two, the tank will be good to go FOR SURE anyways.

 

[KrisReef]

As mentioned a couple times already in this thread, with nitrite present, nitrate readings are falsely inflated.

That is true. @Lasse convinced me to get Tropic Marin nitrite/nitrates test that allows one to test both and estimate how much “nitrite” is present that is measured as nitrate in the test method because these molecules are confounding in the simple test kit. My test for nitrates can show that it is present when actually nitrates are zero and the nitrite is fogging up the test results. That is correct.

I wasn’t addressing that issue directly. The OP asked how much water to charge to go from 50 to 5ppm. I wanted to encourage them to use 1 large water change to achieve the target 5ppm. Lots of folk were replying but not answering that other question the op asked earlier in the thread.

 

[Lasse]

In this thread I try to address my opinion on nitrite measurements and in this thread - how to optimize the full nitrification cycle. These threads include more than all argues for and against different things. Read and use your own head.

However I would not add organic carbon or ghost feed before NO2 is below 0.1 - 0.3 mg/l. However - I would add nitrification bacteria in one or another form on a daily bases. Your nitrification process is more or less stuck before the second step in the process. IMO - it is more or less impossible to dilute NO2 in a ongoing biological process - it will in the most case do an Arnold Schwarzenegger thing and just come back again. Your right - your present NO2 concentration is not acute toxic in saltwater as we know today but nevertheless - your nitrification is stuck before the second stage (NO2-NO3)

According to use dilution as a tool in this case - I agree with @KrisReef about a large WC is best to bring the figures down - but IME - dilution can make that the total maturation of the tank will be delayed - the water in a newly started saltwater tank is rather chemical and sterile - its normally lack all these molecules we call organic colloids that's normally benefit the fishes mucus layer - and could therefore be a little corrosive to the mucous layer. Of this reason I always want to include "old used water" in my sets up.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

And I’ll add this, 38 pages of actual reef tanks showing no harm no stuck cycles and 100% safe fish carry, nitrite can’t be pinned on anything bad, don’t own the kit

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-unstick-any-seemingly-stuck-cycle.742202/

that thread shows your tank will carry fish. It’s good to use actual reef tanks in reef tank cycle studies


if you own a nitrite kit in cycling, expect doubt, confusion, hesitation and steps you have to take to unstick the cycle

and if you don’t ever own the kit, you get those results above


nitrite testing only has bad outcomes, not good ones. It makes reefers lose all focus on fish disease: not once is fish disease discussed in non reef tank links on nitrite, we can see.


fish disease has never been discussed in this thread we are posting in, either- see how false nitrite concerns exclude preps for what really kills fish?

nitrite measurement and reaction is bad for the hobby, vs good. Don’t own a nitrite kit for saltwater reefing.

 

[RaymondNoodles]

The thing is, I don't know if OP's tank ever clouded up during the process, indicating a bacterial bloom

This was the cloudiest the tank got throughout the last 20 days. Picture taken 12 hours after adding ammonia and start XLM.

 

[Crustaceon]

This was the cloudiest the tank got throughout the last 20 days. Picture taken 12 hours after adding ammonia and start XLM.

From Brightwell: "Pitfalls: There are several reasons why hobbyists do not achieve a fast 7 day (approximately) cycle with this product. These are all controllable if careful attention is paid. Even when these factors are present, the tank will still cycle, it will just take more time. 1) Failure to dechlorinate properly. Always use Brightwell Erāse-Cl to completely remove chloramines and chlorine from tap water. Chloramine and chlorine are lethal to the bacteria in this product and if not removed, will cause it to fail! 2) The overuse of ammonia or using household ammonia! Ammonia is toxic to bacteria, even though they consume it, just like it is to fish and invertebrates, so if you overdose the ammonia, it will kill some of the bacteria and it will take longer to cycle! You will still achieve an excellent and strong cycle, it will just take longer, possibly much longer. Also, if you purchase household ammonia, it may have toxic additives, dyes, surfactants and cleaning agents that will stunt the multiplication of the bacteria in the product. Brightwell recommends that you use MicroBacter QuikCyclTM as directed and test so that you don't overdose! 3) In a brand new aquarium, there can sometimes be surfactants, mold release compounds or oily chemicals that coat brand new glass, acrylic, tubing and pumps. These compounds can negatively affect the cycle. It is therefore recommended that you clean all new parts with a mild soap and water and then RINSE THEM VERY WELL! (Do not use antibacterial soap!) This should remove the compounds that can stunt the multiplication of the new bacteria 4) Brightwell recommends that you not use any other type of bacteria product until your cycle with this product is complete !!! Do not even use MicrōBacter7 or MicrōBacterCLEAN until the cycle is complete (then you will want to use one of them to help through the "ugly stage". (MicrōBacterCLEAN will work best for this.) 5) Do not use live sand and particularly DO NOT USE dry seeded artificial live rock until cycling is complete. There are no dry bacteria species that will be compatible with this nitrifying bacteria product or that are useful to cycle an aquarium at all! To use a dry bacteria will only lengthen the time it takes to cycle by many weeks and increase your work many times! Wet cycled live rock or even previously cycled wet man made rock will work fine (although this may be a bad idea due to the possibility of introducing parasites or pathogens from another aquarium). Dry sand is fine to use, but not bagged, so called "live sand" because the manufacturer will usually introduce other bacteria species to replace the natural bacteria that will die during storage and these will be counterproductive to your cycle. Also, several so called "probiotic" salts are available. Again, there are no species of bacteria that are conducive to cycling that are available in a dry form. Therefore, do not use any salt that is labelled as probiotic or says it contains dry bacteria. Note: What to do if you must use live sand or dry seeded live rock - go ahead and use them with the MicrōBacter Start XLM, just realize the cycle will be impeded. It will take more XLM to seed the system (double the dose if you can) and the cycle will likely take 2 to 4 weeks longer to complete because you are working against the XLM, but when completed, will work just fine. 6) DO NOT USE CARBON IN YOUR FILTER until the aquarium has cycled fully or 30 more days has passed. DO NOT USE PHOSPHATE REMOVERS, FILTER RESINS, GFO or other non-biological filtration media until the aquarium is over 30 days old or then you register phosphates on your test kit over .04 PPM. If you do, you will lengthen the cycle. Bacteria require some phosphate to multiply rapidly! Use XportTM, MicroBacter LatticeTM or other filtration media that needs to be populated with bacteria! These will work well. 7) The addition or dosing too soon of active iodine compounds (such as Lugol's), nitrate removers (such as nopox which is made from poisonous methanol), or other additives that are bacteriacidal. If you are going to add these, It is a good idea to wait 30 days."

 

[brandon429]

I like using non testing options to cycle tanks because it puts an objective completion date on file for any user, not able to mess up like we do when assessing by api kits


unfortunately clouding just can’t be used as a marker for cycles in general, we can see in the 38 page collection of cycles nobody has a cloudy phase, although we do see one from time to time and clearly above there was one.

the reason that method still works quite well, when clouding happens, is because it takes about ten days to set in and resolve


ten days, counting the number of days after adding bacteria and any food we want, fish food OR ammonium chloride, is a working objective marker we use for all tanks in the example thread, and it just so happens that eighty year old cycling charts agree ammonia control happens by day ten and remains, # of days underwater factored by the type of boosting used for the cycle is the current #1 way to cycle, to keep 200+ cycles in perfect completion date order, we show.


I support nitrite testing (digital) for the benefit of science, to study that control aspect alongside ammonia completion times, for general knowledge etc but we should not have to make corrective actions based on how it reads in a reef tank cycle, we are free from having to care about it as a consequential param that’s for sure.

 

[brandon429]

For anyone concerned about nitrate testing impacts:

you can’t control the invasion/uglies course of your new cycle reef by knowing, reacting to, or testing for nitrate so why bother testing when you know nitrite will be in play (anytime before day 25, any cycling chart count # of days to nitrite control)

all cycles I do in threads and chats are advised against reacting to nitrate levels in hopes of controlling uglies, this is a ticket to getting dinos. It is merely public hype to think low nitrate levels or levels at 30 ppm nitrate or 60 ppm make a difference, they don’t. Paul B‘s nitrate levels have been posted by him at 160 ppm, precision nitrate control does not matter in reefing just because this decade says it does. There are no 38 page threads of fixing uglies by testing for nitrate, it’s merely a thing folks do for this decade, next decade the gate will swing back to high levels. Zeovit in 2006 was the first method I saw recommending to chop it down and that was to control color in coral, it had no impact on zeovit tanks that get algae etc.


also factors: search any nitrate test kit comparison thread, those tanks are matured / see the massive range three different kits yield


the readings differ 100 ppm per brand...it’s amazing we accept all stated nitrate levels as accurate, we do so based on biases it’s not science.

of all testing in reefing, I offer that nitrate ranges the wildest. Any given tester may be plus or minus a hundred ppm and never know the true reading, while all along making stark reactions and dosers added, or feed withheld, based on full mis testing.

this is where we get coral bleaching, dinos expression, algae, all factors in the mis testing that affects this hobby for the common parameters.

 

[Crustaceon]

And I’ll add this, 38 pages of actual reef tanks showing no harm no stuck cycles and 100% safe fish carry, nitrite can’t be pinned on anything bad, don’t own the kit

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-unstick-any-seemingly-stuck-cycle.742202/

that thread shows your tank will carry fish. It’s good to use actual reef tanks in reef tank cycle studies


if you own a nitrite kit in cycling, expect doubt, confusion, hesitation and steps you have to take to unstick the cycle

and if you don’t ever own the kit, you get those results above


nitrite testing only has bad outcomes, not good ones. It makes reefers lose all focus on fish disease: not once is fish disease discussed in non reef tank links on nitrite, we can see.


fish disease has never been discussed in this thread we are posting in, either- see how false nitrite concerns exclude preps for what really kills fish?

nitrite measurement and reaction is bad for the hobby, vs good. Don’t own a nitrite kit for saltwater reefing.

The main question here is the actual toxicity of the level of nitrite present in the tank. You can absolutely have a "cycled" tank with some degree of nitrites which is why "fish cycling" tanks actually worked. While I wouldn't start by adding nitrite sensitive creatures first, I would add most fish our hobby sees and WELL before any health issues come up, the normal biological process of that added fish is going to carry the tank through any remaining cycling that it needs. There of course is more maturation that our tanks go through biome-wise over the course of a year. Obviously we don't have to wait that long to add livestock. This is why I go with the "clouding" indicator instead of swishing a beaker in my lab until I see "ideal" parameters. Things don't have to be chemically "ideal" from our input and I don't need a test kit to tell me the conditions for bacterial grow and denitrification are present when the water in the tank, literally in front of me, is undergoing a bacteria bloom. We're only starting the process and IME, nature does a fantastic job of completing the process. We're likely slowing down that process by interfering with it like we're punching in code and expecting instantaneous results.

 

[brandon429]

The main thing I aim for is the exact start date for any system

Because after that point a cycling reefer can forget about the cycle and read about disease vector prevention and management

To me that's the most practical science in the matter, what day a cycler can carry fish ethically.


Patterned off reef tank conventions who never fail to assemble full running reefs for display/ fish carry on time across decades, there are means of making any dry start cycle or live rock skip cycle be ready by any given required start date. We've ended the open- ended wait cycle, the greater hobby is barely figuring out (with their myriad fish-on-day-one setups with bottle bac... all the fish lives because they're not burnt, bottle bac is this good we can see across forty thousand examples)

We don't coax cycles anymore, they require no thought and no measure, only # of days counted in plan for the requested start date. All cycles today are bottle bac cycles, live rock skip cycle transfers, or ocean rock cure outs. All those are bacteria- heavy, they won't fail given the feed + known number of days planned

 

[RaymondNoodles]

Here's an update...

9/16 - 20gal (35%) water change
9/17 - Nitrite >2ppm
9/19 - Nitrite 2ppm
9/20 - Nitrite 1ppm
9/21 - Nitrite .25ppm

After a lot of reading and research, I came to the decision to do a large-ish water change on day 25 of the cycle. I was curious to see if lowering the nitrites would "nudge them in the right direction." Since a large water change was in order at the end of the cycle anyways, I figured I'd try it. I'm convinced the tank has been cycled and able to process small amounts of ammonia and ready for a fish for the last week or two. I understand nitrites aren't all that important but decided to do this for our knowledge and research. I wanted to document the progress and take it slow. The lid should be here in a couple days and I'm not in a hurry to add fish anyways. I appreciate the knowledge all of you have shared. I've been studying fish disease and preparing for whatever can possibly happen next. I visited the LFS today to check out fish and work on my stocking plan. Had a good conversation with the staff and I think we have a solid plan in place.

 

[Lasse]

Your nitrification process is more or less stuck before the second step in the process. IMO - it is more or less impossible to dilute NO2 in a ongoing biological process - it will in the most case do an Arnold Schwarzenegger thing and just come back again.

And as I state!

Here's an update...

9/16 - 20gal (35%) water change
9/17 - Nitrite >2ppm
9/19 - Nitrite 2ppm

And this is IME typical - when the second stage just kick in - it goes fast. I have it change from 2 ppm to 0 in one day after weeks of 2 ppm

9/19 - Nitrite 2ppm
9/20 - Nitrite 1ppm
9/21 - Nitrite .25ppm

Now your nitrification process is complete cycled

Sincerely Lasse

 

[92Miata]

You are thinking of heterotrophic bacteria. These bacteria don't care about decomposing matter so long as there is the required substances

The entire point of cycling is to keep ammonia down long enough that heterotrophic bacteria can outcompete nitrosomonas for ammonia capture. Nitrosomonas is almost non-existent in mature reef systems, and is dwarfed in ammonia capture by heterotrophic bacteria, corals, coralline, and other reef organisms.

If his ammonia goes down adding a shrimp, he's good.

 

[92Miata]

The main question here is the actual toxicity of the level of nitrite present in the tank. You can absolutely have a "cycled" tank with some degree of nitrites which is why "fish cycling" tanks actually worked. While I wouldn't start by adding nitrite sensitive creatures first, I would add most fish our hobby sees and WELL before any health issues come up, the normal biological process of that added fish is going to carry the tank through any remaining cycling that it needs. There of course is more maturation that our tanks go through biome-wise over the course of a year. Obviously we don't have to wait that long to add livestock. This is why I go with the "clouding" indicator instead of swishing a beaker in my lab until I see "ideal" parameters. Things don't have to be chemically "ideal" from our input and I don't need a test kit to tell me the conditions for bacterial grow and denitrification are present when the water in the tank, literally in front of me, is undergoing a bacteria bloom. We're only starting the process and IME, nature does a fantastic job of completing the process. We're likely slowing down that process by interfering with it like we're punching in code and expecting instantaneous results.

There are no nitrite-sensitive organisms in reef tanks. It literally takes hundreds of ppm to bother shrimp larvae in saltwater, because the reason nitrite bothers fish in fresh water is it's a chlorine antagonist in fish's gills. Marine tanks are literally 19,000ppm chlorine - there's so much chlorine that it doesn't matter.

The idea that nitrite is toxic is carried over from freshwater fishkeepers - and is a myth.


I don't even know how many tanks I've cycled at this point - hundreds? And I've never seen one get cloudy. Cloudiness is not a normal part of cycling a reef tank.