Nuisance ID - Including Photos, Parameters and Description

[mcarroll]

@bubbaque I agree that dosing was not really indicated for your tank since there was no offending algae or other observable problem with the tank at the time. If anything it sounds like just feeding (even) more would have been a great idea.

Details, Details, Details
PO4 – Depending on your PO4 kit's error rate, .02 ppm PO4 might be near-zero or even actually zero. Either one is not good for the subject at hand.

NO3 – NO3 at zero is a second potential cue for dino's to start changing their behavior in a bad way. Under low-nutrient conditions a spike in NO3 will potentially upset the balance by causing a bloom which uses up all available PO4 from the water....which can provoke the dino's.

Dino's – Apparently dino's are not good at competing for and acquiring PO4, so even at "merely low" PO4-concentrations they can start to starve for PO4.

So while your corals were so far competing in that environment just fine, I would still say overall that the signs, including the dino's, are that you are/were slightly starving the tank.

Certainly there's room to feed more in your system....sometimes that's enough to get PO4 back to where it needs to be, and certainly the animals in the tank will be happier.

But in the short term, if you were to dose any liquid nutrients, I'd have to suggest dosing both NO3 and PO4 up to low, minimum levels until signs of the dino's have completely passed. Something like 5 ppm / 0.05 ppm.

Myself, I think I'd just try to feed more.....perhaps using an auto-feeder with dry foods to feed some while you're away.

 

[bubbaque]

I don't really feel though I am a low nutrient system at all. My numbers may appear low on a test but that's just because of my chaeto. If it wasn't for the chaeto my po4 and no3 would be sky high. My sump also has hair algae all in it, so there is definitely plenty of po4 and no3. I turned off my light over the chaeto to kill any dinos that was growing down there and my no3 raised by 2.5ppm in 2 days without the chaeto growing. I just caught up in chasing numbers so I dosed no3.

To me it seems each time I dose no3 I get some sort of dinos. I even made a post roughly a year ago after I dosed no3 in my old 75 gallon asking if it was normal. The member diesel told me yes it was normal. Whenever I dose it some how upsets the balance of things.

Edit: after dosing the no3 green hair algae started covering my coralline algae on my overflows, as before it was just plain coralline.

 

[mcarroll]

I don't really feel though I am a low nutrient system at all.

I certainly can't argue from behind this computer screen – you're there! But if you're telling me that dino's found a niche to bloom in, then they are telling a different story.

My numbers may appear low on a test but that's just because of my chaeto.

I don't think it's that simple.....the chaeto is in a different tank, but not in a vacuum. Macro's are connected to the microbial web of the tank just as corals and dino's are. There are many many critters in that food web that we don't even think about.....corals and algae are the tips of the iceberg.

If it wasn't for the chaeto my po4 and no3 would be sky high.

Have you tested that? How high did it get/what is 'sky high' to your system? (I mean for more than a day.....trends from nutrient changes take 3+ weeks to settle out in my experience.)

I'm curious if you'd see an initial bloom but then it would settle down and your herbivores and CUC would be able to balance it out. A little like @Paul B 's tank! He's got crazy high nutrients, but no issues. He uses an ATS instead of a fuge like you, but he also question's its effectiveness since it grows as much coral as algae these days. I don't think you're as far from that kind of tank as you think.

 

[bubbaque]

I think the dinos bloomed from and instant boost to dosing nitrate instead of going a natural way, I don't feel the dinos would of happened if I just turned the chaeto light off.

I think if your able to grow macro algae than there is enough po4 and no3 in the water. I have not tested to see where it would balance out if I just stopped using the macro algae, I just assumed it would keep climbing if nothing starts to absorb it like algae.

I'm not sure if you watch BRS on YouTube but a few weeks ago they answered a question I asked them "can macro algae be too efficient". There answer was no. I think if you carbon dose then bacteria can consume all available no3 and po4 but I don't believe macro algae can. It's like when certain tanks have tons of hair algae and have no measurable no3, but people will tell them they have plenty just the algae consumes it. I believe macro algae does the same. I'm sure you know who Mike&terry are on this forum and their tank is beautiful. I reached out to them and asked what their no3 was because they never say in their thread. She said she doesn't generally measure no3 but makes sure to measure po4. She measured no3 for me and she said it was undetectable.

 

[zachxlutz]

FTS 06/15/2017:

It's been about three weeks since I updated this thread so I figured it was time for a quick run-down of what's been going on with the tank and how the battle with dinoflagellates is going.

I was kidding myself thinking that just additional feeding was helping with the dinos. I kept feeding and feeding and checking with the Hannah Phosphorus ULR checker and was consistently seeing 0 or 1. ZERO PHOSPHATES. ZILCH.

I finally bit the bullet and bought some AquaVitro Activate phosphorus additive and I've been dosing up to .1 every day for the last couple of days and this time... this time I think I see a decrease in the dinos. It seems like the tank is soaking up about 1 ppm NO3 and .05 ppm PO4 daily. I definitely see some more polyp extension and LOTS of growth in the refugium. I'm really hoping this is the path I need to keep following. What really needs to happen is the addition of a few more fish to more naturally increase the bio-load so I can move away from having to dose both nitrates and phosphates.

Last night I added 2 packs of 5280 pods from algaebarn.com and refreshed my CUC with 100 Dwarf Ceriths, 23 Nassarius vibex, 38 Florida Ceriths, 25 Assorted Hermits, 25 Nerites and 1 Fighting Conch.

Florida Fighting Conch (2.5-3" long):

I'm also starting a dosing regimen of live phytoplankton daily to help feed the zooplankton which, hopefully, are playing a role in helping to diminish the dinoflagellates.

Alk has bottomed out at 8.1 for the last 3 weeks with no dosing. I'm seeing slight growth in the coral, just not enough to soak up the alkalinity in the water and require dosing. I'll just keep the calcium and alkalinity dosers off until I see the need to turn them back on.

The refugium is packed with red and green macros that are growing like crazy and proving to be quite the breeding ground for pods, worms and all sorts of tiny little zooplankton. I need to trim it back, but I hate to pull it out, it's looking really neat.

 

[bubbaque]

Have you tried to dose hydrogen peroxide? I was fighting dinos (verified with mico scope) for about a month I read a thread about dosing peroxide and after about four days my tank looks to be free of dinos.

 

[zachxlutz]

Have you tried to dose hydrogen peroxide? I was fighting dinos (verified with mico scope) for about a month I read a thread about dosing peroxide and after about four days my tank looks to be free of dinos.

I have not. I'm trying to avoid dosing anything to specifically address the dinos. I think once I get the system stabilized and carrying a nutrient load the dinos will be outcompeted by more desirable and controllable algaes.

 

[bubbaque]

Peroxide is just oxygen and water. I was worried about trying it but soooo happy I did.

 

[Brew12]

Peroxide is just oxygen and water. I was worried about trying it but soooo happy I did.

While using H2O2 is fairly safe I would caution you against that logic.

NaCl or sodium chloride is table salt and the basis for our aquariums.
NaClO, or sodium hypochloride is bleach. The way that extra oxygen is attached makes a huge difference and is why H2O2 and bleach work.

 

[bubbaque]

While using H2O2 is fairly safe I would caution you against that logic.

NaCl or sodium chloride is table salt and the basis for our aquariums.
NaClO, or sodium hypochloride is bleach. The way that extra oxygen is attached makes a huge difference and is why H2O2 and bleach work.

Thanks for that! I have no idea how the peroxide works in a tank but some how it does. Sps don't seemed bothered at all, shrimp all still alive but dinos have disappeared. I'm going to keep dosing for a few more days to make sure they are gone.

 

[fragit]

Following along as I think I have been dealing with the same thing, and not sure if it's diatoms, cyano, or dinos.

 

[zachxlutz]

Following along as I think I have been dealing with the same thing, and not sure if it's diatoms, cyano, or dinos.

Check out this thread while you're at it.: Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

 

[mcarroll]

The refugium is packed with red and green macros that are growing like crazy and proving to be quite the breeding ground for pods, worms and all sorts of tiny little zooplankton. I need to trim it back, but I hate to pull it out, it's looking really neat.

If that's how it's going in the fuge and overall, I don't think I'd change anything....just keep up what you're doing (which includes using good sense!)

 

[fragit]

How's the battle going? I am 99% sure at this point that I have dinos. I need to get to @mcarroll 's other thread for remedies. Just wondering how your progress is going.

 

[zachxlutz]

If that's how it's going in the fuge and overall, I don't think I'd change anything....just keep up what you're doing (which includes using good sense!)

How's the battle going? I am 99% sure at this point that I have dinos. I need to get to @mcarroll 's other thread for remedies. Just wondering how your progress is going.

Things are rolling along smoothly at this point. I'm testing for nitrate, phosphate and alkalinity daily. If NO3 is below 5, I dose it to 5. If PO4 is below .1, I dose it to .1. Pretty simple routine. It's a daily affair though. I need to reconfigure a few things with my QT situation and I'm going to pick up a few more fish to help increase the bioload. I really think that's the best solution at this point. The dosing routine is 100% helping to put an end to the dinos in my tank. Best of luck to everyone else! Balancing nutrients after getting things out of whack seems to be the ticket to helping my tank look better and avoid these nasties.

 

[mcarroll]

I'm going to pick up a few more fish to help increase the bioload.

Good deal overall on your progress!

It's hard to put a concrete timeframe around it, but I'd hesitate on the new fish until you're well-past the dino's IMO.

Shoot for stability in your feeding regime vs an increase in your feeding. For example, consider using an auto-feeder so the tank can be fed even when it's not convenient and even when you forget.

 

[zachxlutz]

Good deal overall on your progress!

It's hard to put a concrete timeframe around it, but I'd hesitate on the new fish until you're well-past the dino's IMO.

Shoot for stability in your feeding regime vs an increase in your feeding. For example, consider using an auto-feeder so the tank can be fed even when it's not convenient and even when you forget.

Thanks... I'll keep that in mind with regards to adding more fish. Reasoning behind that? Making sure I don't spike nutrient levels by adding more bioload?

You mentioned the auto-feeder in another thread and I replied with this (in an effort to keep information consistent across threads, i'm copy/pasting here): I do use an Eheim and have it set to do 2 rotations 4 times a day with Marine S pellets. Just a pinch each time, but it totals to 8 pinches a day, plus the BIG pinch I give once a day and the 2x frozen Mysis cubes and I still struggle to keep NO3 and PO4 levels registering.

The dinos are definitely clearing up each day and less and less are showing up when lights are on. The coral all look as happy as they ever have with polyp extension and coloration returning more and more each day.

 

[K. Steven]

Thanks... I'll keep that in mind with regards to adding more fish. Reasoning behind that? Making sure I don't spike nutrient levels by adding more bioload?

You mentioned the auto-feeder in another thread and I replied with this (in an effort to keep information consistent across threads, i'm copy/pasting here): I do use an Eheim and have it set to do 2 rotations 4 times a day with Marine S pellets. Just a pinch each time, but it totals to 8 pinches a day, plus the BIG pinch I give once a day and the 2x frozen Mysis cubes and I still struggle to keep NO3 and PO4 levels registering.

The dinos are definitely clearing up each day and less and less are showing up when lights are on. The coral all look as happy as they ever have with polyp extension and coloration returning more and more each day.

I think the goal we are trying to achieve is a consistent nutrient regime, where the same number of nutrients are being exported (e.g. algae growth, skimming, anaerobic bacterial metabolism, etc.) as we put in the tank. If this consistency continues, we give a chance for all of the dino predators/competitors to firmly establish their population in order to battle them. These problem dinoflagellates all seem to be affecting chaotic systems, where nutrients or conditions are bouncing around all the time. Just check out the threads that mention bleach, metronidazole, peroxide, etc. There's no way our closed systems can handle being bombarded with chemical warfare on a daily, or even hourly, rate.

In my case, I was also thinking about adding bioload, but my nutrients, specifically my nutrient ratio (NO3/PO4) was out of whack. So adding another fish wasn't going to take care of that. Only by correcting my nutrient imbalance via dosing phosphate did I greatly reduce my Ostreopsis. Now, I'm hoping to maintain these parameters to help give the microfauna the stability they need to populate and eat the enemy.

 

[zachxlutz]

I think the goal we are trying to achieve is a consistent nutrient regime, where the same number of nutrients are being exported (e.g. algae growth, skimming, anaerobic bacterial metabolism, etc.) as we put in the tank. If this consistency continues, we give a chance for all of the dino predators/competitors to firmly establish their population in order to battle them. These problem dinoflagellates all seem to be affecting chaotic systems, where nutrients or conditions are bouncing around all the time. Just check out the threads that mention bleach, metronidazole, peroxide, etc. There's no way our closed systems can handle being bombarded with chemical warfare on a daily, or even hourly, rate.

In my case, I was also thinking about adding bioload, but my nutrients, specifically my nutrient ratio (NO3/PO4) was out of whack. So adding another fish wasn't going to take care of that. Only by correcting my nutrient imbalance via dosing phosphate did I greatly reduce my Ostreopsis. Now, I'm hoping to maintain these parameters to help give the microfauna the stability they need to populate and eat the enemy.

I agree with your first paragraph 100%. The tank needs to establish itself, in this particular situation, to help overcome the dinos in the most natural way possible. Luckily, in my case, bringing the nutrient levels back to a certain equilibrium greatly increased the biodiversity of the macro/microfauna/algaes in the tank which has allowed the dinos to get beaten back. I don't believe any medicine or chemical treatment would have been appropriate for this case.

That being said, I'm 100% positive that my tank is heading in the right direction. Best of luck to all those out there who are battling this same issue. Feel free to add to the discussion here, if anyone thinks they have a similar case.

 

[K. Steven]

Sorry, I just realized you were also in the other dino thread and I basically repeated the same things here. I'm glad I've had a similar experience with nutrient adjustment and hope others will also give it a try.