P04 Issues

[Dan I]

Alright, where to to begin. I have had a 80 gallon with a 30 gallon sump tank running for almost a year and a half after a restart. I got dry rock and dry sand, which is a mistake on my part, and I am on a fun roller coaster right now. Around 5 months into my restart things were going okay, until I had to move. Got my tank moved over to a new place and its been almost a year since than. I have added several SPS with some success, but never had that growth or color. Always staled out and usually stayed green. At first I thought it was light and I added a T5 retro kit to my Reefbreeders v2.

To begin, my setup for nutrient export is as follows:

- ATS
- Simplicity Skimmer
- GFO (Currently OFF)
- Microbacter 7 at 10 ml daily
- Vibrant every 2 weeks at 8ml

I bought nitrate and phosphate kits to check all paramaters. On my Hanna Phosphorus checker I was maxing out at 200+ ppb. So, I grabbed my old GFO that has been sitting in a cabinet in the garage. Popped on, and P04 dropped to around .150 ppm. Lost some acros and gained burnt tips due to drop. However, I am beginning to get burnt tips and STN. I took my GFO off and would like to add it back on to manage P04. Also, last I checked Nitrates were sitting around 15 ppm.Also, I read on here that dry rocks can become P04 sponge in some sense.

I also sent an ICP test and am waiting for the results and will post when given.

In addition, I am adding around 1.7 L of Siporax to help with nutrients within the week. My question in broad terms would be if should I get a different type of GFO for better management such as BRS High Capacity or stick with regular BRS GFO. I am kind of stump on what is going on.

 

[TMB]

Well I am going to suggest just slowing down. The tank probably didn’t get to 200ppb over night, you can’t reduce it very fast either.
I don’t run GFO (I prefer lanth on the rare occasion I choose to use it), but I think those that do will tell you to use a much smaller amount than you did, and change it every few days. The goal being to bring it down really slow, so you give your corals time to adjust to the change without RTN’ing.
If you’re not having huge algae problems then it’s just chasing numbers anyway.
The order of importance with SPS is IMO:
Keeping them alive (was regardless of color or growth)
Growth
Color
I’m also not a believer in adding things like vibrant or microbacter. I’m sure there are those that do, but I can assure you that none of it is necessary for a successful reef.
The recent ROTM article by @FarmerTy basically says the same thing, and results speak volumes.

There is a lot to the balance of a reef, and it takes time to find it. It might help if you told us more about your fish load, feeding habits, CUC, and a full tank shot. HTH

 

[Dan I]

Fish
- Small Lamarck's Angelfish
- Magnificent Foxface
- Mystery Wrasse
- Melanurus Wrasse
- Yellow Wrasse
- Tomini Tang
- Two Clownfish
- Diamond Goby
- Marine Betta
- Royal Gamma

CUC
- 4-5 Mexican Turbo Snails
- Handful of Astra Snails
- Handful of Cerith Snails
- 4-5 Conch Snails
- Urchin
- Maxima Clam

Feeding Habits
I tend to feed LRS Reef or Herbivore Frenzy sized at 1"x 1" once a day with a sheet of Julian Spring's Nori sheet. I feed Reef Roids at 1 tablespoon once or twice a week.

TANK SHOT

 

[TMB]

Well I think we found the problem! Before I get to that, your tank looks great man!

You can’t possibly mean a tablespoon of reef roads 1 or 2 times a week?
I almost promise that you could just stop using it all together, and you’d see no change other than PO4 dropping.
You’re feeding good food to your fish, and your fish are feeding your corals. You gotta lay off the RR crack!
If that’s a typo I apologize, but that much ReefRoids blew me off the chair!
I would use no more than a small pinch between your fingers 1 or 2 times a week. But even that is really not necessary, and I don’t think there is even definitive proof that SPS even consume it.

 

[Water Dog]

Whoa, yeah,I read 1 tablespoon of Reef Roids once or twice a week and did a double take. If that amount of Reef Roids is what you’re feeding for an 80 gallon tank, then that is most likely the cause of your high PO4 issues.

 

[Dan I]

Haha, yeah around .7-1 tablespoon. I will stop that and do a waterchange this week and see the outcome. I am going to readjust my sump to accommodate filtersocks and siporax. I am not a big fan of GFO as well, should I avoid it and let my current export do it's job?

 

[TMB]

I bet if you did nothing but stop the Reef Roids it would start to come down. Small water changes should help too.

 

[Dan I]

Okay, sounds good. What would a healthy rate of reduction of P04 be ranged at?

I will update this thread with a PO4 before and after water change with a 48 hours update too. Also, will add ICP test that was sent out last Friday for additional info.

 

[SeaDweller]

Everyone always doodoos on gfo here. To me, it’s underrated and a valuable tool if used properly. Many will disagree, some use it 24/7, some don’t need it. Each tank has its own chemistry and is so unique in that regard. I run rowaphos 24/7 because I feed so heavily.

Having said that, I only run about half of the recommended amount and my PO4 doesn’t go above 0.10 ppm anymore (if ever), which is probably kept in check with the chaeto I run too. That’s with me feeding flakes heavily in the AM, pellets on timer twice during the day, and about 6 cubes worth of mysis, plankton and brine at night. Trust me when I say my acros don’t lack color and I don’t have algae issues in my DT.

I’ve used lanthanum to bring down PO4 fast, but this was in a fish only system. If I were you, I’d run about 1/3 to 1/2 the recommended amount of gfo and check the DT levels or the reactor’s effluent daily too see if it’s beginning to register PO4. If it is then change it out.

Whatever you do, you need to go slow as stripping it from your water too fast isn’t good, and the rebound and removal that may happen from leaching (if any) may be stressful too.

... and here is my buddy @Chaswood79 will tell you not to even touch the devil stuff [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

 

[Dan I]

Alright, got some updates at the moment. Since posting this, I have readjusted feeding to no Reef Roids and continuing my 1x1 LRS food and nori sheet. Here are the numbers for the past two weeks or so, including ICP test which was sent June 12. Results returned on June 19. I did two 10 gallon water changes since than. In addition, I adjusted my sump to accommodate 1.7 L of Siporax and will be adding filter socks tomorrow with the inclusion of micro bubble scrubbing.

TEST RESULTS

Triton ICP- Analysis 6/19

Hanna ULR Phosphorus TEST

6/18 - P04 = .196 ppm

6/23 - P04= .190 ppm



I am looking at not much reduction and am debating on adding GFO back. Feedback?

 

[SeaDweller]

Alright, got some updates at the moment. Since posting this, I have readjusted feeding to no Reef Roids and continuing my 1x1 LRS food and nori sheet. Here are the numbers for the past two weeks or so, including ICP test which was sent June 12. Results returned on June 19. I did two 10 gallon water changes since than. In addition, I adjusted my sump to accommodate 1.7 L of Siporax and will be adding filter socks tomorrow with the inclusion of micro bubble scrubbing.

TEST RESULTS

Triton ICP- Analysis 6/19

Hanna ULR Phosphorus TEST

6/18 - P04 = .196 ppm

6/23 - P04= .190 ppm



I am looking at not much reduction and am debating on adding GFO back. Feedback?

Eh. 0.20 isn’t much, just add gfo if you want and maybe aim for 0.07-0.10 ppm.

 

[Dan I]

Yeah, I'm deciding on new GFO. I'm thinking of BRS High Capacity. I'm just not getting any much growth on SPS. In addition, most of them are green and not coloring up. Tank has been up 1 year plus and would like to hit that growth mark now. I am pretty positive it is the P04 that's is stunting my growth and color.

On the other hand, nitrates should be in the ballpark of 10-15 ppm last I checked.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Yeah, I'm deciding on new GFO. I'm thinking of BRS High Capacity. I'm just not getting any much growth on SPS. In addition, most of them are green and not coloring up. Tank has been up 1 year plus and would like to hit that growth mark now. I am pretty positive it is the P04 that's is stunting my growth and color.

On the other hand, nitrates should be in the ballpark of 10-15 ppm last I checked.

My no3 is 25-30 and my po4 0.20–0.25 and my acros are growing better than ever. Trying to artificially hit a no3/po4 will more often than not do more damage than just keeping it where it is and start feeding less/more, whatever is required.

My nutrients have been ultra low and they’ve been the “ideal” range but my sps have never looked as good or grown as fast as they are now at 25-30 and 0.20-0.25

 

[Dan I]

I understand that some tanks do thrive at high nutrients, however in my case its's just not doing much for my SPS. While my LPS are doing good. I have had high nutrients for quite some time (without knowing) and never had good color, growth, or signs of change. I noticed a some improvement when I didn't feed much and did couple of water changes earlier in the year, however that stopped and I thought I needed to add some Reef Roids and I could not get anything going with my SPS. Zoas exploded from that aftermath though, and I got some nice colonies now.

I believe the micro bubble scrubbing and filter socks will do great things for my tank. Just debating on reinstating my GFO reactor or placing a bag of GFO to slowly reduce my P04.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

I understand that some tanks do thrive at high nutrients, however in my case its's just not doing much for my SPS. While my LPS are doing good. I have had high nutrients for quite some time (without knowing) and never had good color, growth, or signs of change. I noticed a some improvement when I didn't feed much and did couple of water changes earlier in the year, however that stopped and I thought I needed to add some Reef Roids and I could not get anything going with my SPS. Zoas exploded from that aftermath though, and I got some nice colonies now.

I believe the micro bubble scrubbing and filter socks will do great things for my tank. Just debating on reinstating my GFO reactor or placing a bag of GFO to slowly reduce my P04.

Well I never had any success chasing numbers with gfo, carbon dosing etc. I had nothing but death. Most of the acros I have that are thriving took 6-9 months to fully encrust and start growing. Stalled green corals are better than burnt tips and stn/rtn. Have you checked your par? My fastest tenuis growers are in 400-500 par for 9 hours with 1.5 hour ramps up and down.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Your tank and sps look great. Just chill on the reef roids for now and I bet your nutrients will come down naturally.

 

[Dan I]

Yeah, I find it awesome for some reefers to have high nutrients with amazing tanks. I am not in a hurry to drop my nutrients just wanted to know if I would be heading in a right path or if something I was doing was a not the greatest choice. For example, my overfeeding on the reef roids. I think I will just let the tank run it's course with no GFO and just run activated carbon. Will check nutrients once a week and keep in mind on my feeding.

I am actually going to be checking par tomorrow when my new T5 bulbs come in. I will be using my Seneye par meter. I will post par numbers and would like your feedback. However, I always felt my part with just my Reefbreeders were never truly accurate compared to others.

 

[Charlie’s Frags]

Yeah, I find it awesome for some reefers to have high nutrients with amazing tanks. I am not in a hurry to drop my nutrients just wanted to know if I would be heading in a right path or if something I was doing was a not the greatest choice. For example, my overfeeding on the reef roids. I think I will just let the tank run it's course with no GFO and just run activated carbon. Will check nutrients once a week and keep in mind on my feeding.

I am actually going to be checking par tomorrow when my new T5 bulbs come in. I will be using my Seneye par meter. I will post par numbers and would like your feedback. However, I always felt my part with just my Reefbreeders were never truly accurate compared to others.

I don’t know anything about the reefbreeders but @TitanCi does and I can almost guarantee you he’ll be happy to help.

 

[SeaDweller]

Yeah, I find it awesome for some reefers to have high nutrients with amazing tanks. I am not in a hurry to drop my nutrients just wanted to know if I would be heading in a right path or if something I was doing was a not the greatest choice. For example, my overfeeding on the reef roids. I think I will just let the tank run it's course with no GFO and just run activated carbon. Will check nutrients once a week and keep in mind on my feeding.

I am actually going to be checking par tomorrow when my new T5 bulbs come in. I will be using my Seneye par meter. I will post par numbers and would like your feedback. However, I always felt my part with just my Reefbreeders were never truly accurate compared to others.

I don’t know anything about the reefbreeders but @TitanCi does and I can almost guarantee you he’ll be happy to help.

Chaswood79 and I have slightly different philosophies, but one common goal in mind: healthy, thriving, colorful acros. I mean, that’s what we all want and strive for, right? I don’t ever try to refute his posts on not using gfo, and he doesn’t refute my posts when I post about it. We have a respect for each other cuz what we both are doing, works. I don’t try to chase arbitrary numbers, I just know I should run certain media cuz I like to feed heavy and I know the presence of fish and their poop is helping my acros, that’s common knowledge. I do 40 gallon WC each month and if I didn’t run chaeto, active gfo, passive carbon, and a sulfur denitrator, my nutrients would climb to a level I couldn’t manage later. My formula and method is working for me right now.

If you’re thinking it may be your po4, maybe try 1/3-1/2 of the amount of gfo that’s recommended. That way you’re not stripping too much too quickly.

Now as far as the reefbreeders go, there was a point where i had them too strong. I run the photon V2+, and I think it’s the best bang for the buck fixture once it’s dialed in properly to YOUR tank. I ran CL AB+ at 100% blues and violet and 24% others and man they cooked my acros, hung up 13” from the water line and with the uppermost acros being 6” below the water. They were not thriving.

I dropped down the blues to 85%, white to 20% and red 24%, green 22%, and just left it there. That’s peak intensity for my core 8 hours, with a slow ramp of a few hours before and after, just low intensity stuff, mainly blues and red and green, little white. I have not checked par, but once I lengthened my photoperiod to 8 hours and dropped the intensities, things exploded in my tank, even at 37” on the bottom. This makes me think the par is still too high up top, and I’ve thought about dropping the channels some more, but seeing my growth and coloration now, I’m not fixin to fix anything.

What are your RB settings at, how high up?

 

[jda]

Lowering P does not have to be hard nor unsafe, but doing it too fast can be. When using GFO, use a few tablespoons changed nearly every day for a steady and safe approach that will not leave acropora mad.

I still find that P around 1-3 ppb makes the best growth and color, but I would rather have it higher than than if the alternative is using too much GFO (or LC) too fast.

When you use a lot of GFO, the tank water concentration drops quickly. The GFO exhausts quickly. Then, the aragonite releases a bunch nearly back up to where you were. This kind of up/down swing is hard on corals. You want to use just a little bit and use it slowly so that you about match the release from the aragonite