Persistent Ich in Copper

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes still been in full copper. At that photo I read 2.48 ppm

It looks better than in the 12/4 photos. Without a microscope and doing a skin scrape, I'd have to say that these are mucus plugs. Those can be a result of some stressor. Trouble is, the two common stressors are copper treatments and ich.

Ich spots are more randomly distributed on a fish, including the fins. Mucus plugs tend to show only on the body and are a little larger. Mucus plugs tend to be on one fish only, while ich will infect multiple fish at a time (what other fish are in with this one and how are they doing?)

 

[litsoh]

I wouldn't consider that ich to have "come back with a vengeance", there's maybe 10 spots on him that I can see. It's odd that you had a resurgence during a copper treatment though. At any time did the copper level go below 2.25 or so? Even for a few minutes like during a water change before adding copper back in? If so, you must restart the clock. You can try hyposalinity but you'll need an accurate method of verifying salinty as it's just enough salt to not kill the fish, a Tropic Marin glass hydrometer is a good choice.

Another option is the tank transfer method (TTM). It focuses on keeping the fish a step or two ahead of the ich free swimmers. If you put your fish into a new sterile tank every 72 hours, you will effectively get the fish into a tank with zero ich after several transfers as the ich on the fish fall off naturally. It would be worth considering if you have been unable to eliminate ich with copper. There is a hybrid version of TTM that involves an H2O2 or formalin bath between tank transfers, you can read more in depth about it on humble.fish

It is not lymphocystis.

Copper levels would not have gone under 2.25, I pre-dose my water change water for a few hours before I do the water change and verify the levels with a hanna checker before changing it out. There’s also nothing that would absorb any copper either as there is only a sponge filter and PVC inside the tank.

I’m considering giving it a little more time in copper and if it still fails I’ll go the TTM route

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Copper levels would not have gone under 2.25, I pre-dose my water change water for a few hours before I do the water change and verify the levels with a hanna checker before changing it out. There’s also nothing that would absorb any copper either as there is only a sponge filter and PVC inside the tank.

I’m considering giving it a little more time in copper and if it still fails I’ll go the TTM route

Rather than TTM, you might consider hyposalinity;

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2024 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[litsoh]

Yes still been in full copper. At that photo I read 2.48 ppm

It looks better than in the 12/4 photos. Without a microscope and doing a skin scrape, I'd have to say that these are mucus plugs. Those can be a result of some stressor. Trouble is, the two common stressors are copper treatments and ich.

Ich spots are more randomly distributed on a fish, including the fins. Mucus plugs tend to show only on the body and are a little larger. Mucus plugs tend to be on one fish only, while ich will infect multiple fish at a time (what other fish are in with this one and how are they doing?)

How long would mucus plugs be visible on a fish, and how often would they pop up/“move spots” on a fish?

Unfortunately there are no other fish in imwith it that I can compare to. If I ever come across some saltwater acclimated mollies at my LFS I might just pick one up to use as a test

 

[Jay Hemdal]

How long would mucus plugs be visible on a fish, and how often would they pop up/“move spots” on a fish?

Unfortunately there are no other fish in imwith it that I can compare to. If I ever come across some saltwater acclimated mollies at my LFS I might just pick one up to use as a test

Ich spots tend to change location every 2 to 3 days. If you see the same spot in the same location longer than 3 days, it isn’t ich.

 

[litsoh]

View attachment 20251228_234302_276701A8-DEBD-424B-BE95-155D2A906A53.mov

Here’s a short video from today, you can see a couple of specks on its tail as well as a few on its right side most notably on the head

 

[litsoh]

How long would mucus plugs be visible on a fish, and how often would they pop up/“move spots” on a fish?

Unfortunately there are no other fish in imwith it that I can compare to. If I ever come across some saltwater acclimated mollies at my LFS I might just pick one up to use as a test

Ich spots tend to change location every 2 to 3 days. If you see the same spot in the same location longer than 3 days, it isn’t ich.

Spots on the tail fin have returned, so I guess it’s still ich

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Spots on the tail fin have returned, so I guess it’s still ich

It does look like ich, but it is difficult to reconcile that with full copper…..

 

[litsoh]

Spots on the tail fin have returned, so I guess it’s still ich

It does look like ich, but it is difficult to reconcile that with full copper…..

A copper resistant strain maybe? But from what I’ve read it’s fairly rare to come across. I’ll try to take another reading of my copper levels when I get home but I did a 50% water change with treated water at 2.48 copper a couple days ago. I can’t imagine the levels to be all that different, and even if there is a slight fluctuation it shouldn’t be as big as to take it out of therapeutic levels.

 

[litsoh]

Yep. Hanna checker just read 2.49 and the spots have increased on the body and tailfin.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

A copper resistant strain maybe? But from what I’ve read it’s fairly rare to come across. I’ll try to take another reading of my copper levels when I get home but I did a 50% water change with treated water at 2.48 copper a couple days ago. I can’t imagine the levels to be all that different, and even if there is a slight fluctuation it shouldn’t be as big as to take it out of therapeutic levels.

Copper is a direct toxin, and even with antibiotics, it takes repeated generations to produce a resistant species of bacteria, so that really isn't a thing. More often, the spots end up being something other than a protozoan - mucus plugs, skin tags, etc.

 

[litsoh]

Quick update, ended up putting him through ttm and he’s now happily in my display tank. My tang wasn’t too happy about it at first but after a couple days with the mirror they’re doing just fine