Poll: Do You Use Ground Probes

[SashimiTurtle]

Glad to help. And if there is anything specific you wanted me to comment on just ask. It does amaze me that someone who gets the high level technical stuff correct misses the simple impact of the conductivity of the seawater. Especially since he mentions how conductive it is as part of his discussion!

I think this is in context, but sometimes one cannot see the forest for all the trees...

 

[4FordFamily]

No, because I’ve never felt it necessary but I’m also not very knowledgeable in this arena.

 

[Livinlocal]

My biggest fear is that your homes neutral has become disconnected from ground. There are a few tests you can run using a voltmeter. I would take a voltage from the ground to the neutral in the same outlet. It should read 0V. You can also take a voltage reading from hot to ground and it should be in the 110V to 120V range and be very steady. If it is bouncing around that be an indication of a problem.

OK Hopefully I’m doing this right, but this is what my volt meter is reading.

 

[Brew12]

OK Hopefully I’m doing this right, but this is what my volt meter is reading.

I hope that isn't correct! I would test another circuit or two and see if you get something similar on them, also.

If you do, you need to call your local utility provider and tell them that you believe your neutral is no longer connected to your ground. Explain that you tested it with a voltmeter and got 49 volts AC between neutral and ground on one of your receptacles. This is a very common cause of home electrical fires.

 

[saltyhog]

These may be dumb questions but......

What are the chances of a GFCI breaking the circuit without any thing actually being wrong? I have had a GFCI in my bathroom periodically trigger without any discernible reason my electrician could find. While this is an inconvenience when my wife is drying her hair it would be disastrous for my aquarium if it triggered when we were on vacation or no one was home to reset it. How often does this happen. The

All of my equipment is 12 volt (power heads, return pump, skimmer pump) except for my two heaters. They are plugged in to my Apex and my Apex is plugged in to a GFCI. Is that sufficient protection or do the heaters need to be plugged in to a GFCI directly?

Before I had GFCI's in my "fish room" I had one of my QT tanks that would give my a small shock if I touched the front right corner. After process of elimination (plugging and unplugging equipment) I found it to be a power head with the electrical line in the tank. I actually got suspicious because the breaker to that receptacle tripped a couple of times the week before I caught this. It would only shock me if I touched a particular point on the tank. I thought I was going crazy and was looking for a sharp edge on the tank trim, LOL.

Thanks for starting this thread Brew!

 

[Brew12]

These may be dumb questions but......

The only dumb question is the one that goes unasked!

What are the chances of a GFCI breaking the circuit without any thing actually being wrong? I have had a GFCI in my bathroom periodically trigger without any discernible reason my electrician could find.

It does happen, especially with larger motors and lighting ballasts. Most modern GFCI's have fixed this problem by improving their filter circuits. If it does happen, its best to change it out. GFCI's are getting better but they still fail. You are supposed to use the "test" trip function on a GFCI monthly which few of us actually do. The newer GFCI's perform a constant self-check.

All of my equipment is 12 volt (power heads, return pump, skimmer pump) except for my two heaters. They are plugged in to my Apex and my Apex is plugged in to a GFCI. Is that sufficient protection or do the heaters need to be plugged in to a GFCI directly?

What you have is just fine.

Thanks for starting this thread Brew!

Thanks to @dbl for highlighting it! This is obviously a topic that is near and dear to my heart.

 

[Livinlocal]

I hope that isn't correct! I would test another circuit or two and see if you get something similar on them, also.

If you do, you need to call your local utility provider and tell them that you believe your neutral is no longer connected to your ground. Explain that you tested it with a voltmeter and got 49 volts AC between neutral and ground on one of your receptacles. This is a very common cause of home electrical fires.

Before I call I want to make sure I am doing this correctly. Does it matter which outlet I plug the red cord into? When I put the red prong into the right side of the electrical box, it comes up with a different reading. This outlet matches what the rest of my house reads, but is often a little bit. Now my other side of my kitchen and garage read something completely different. The third picture is in my garage.

 

[Brew12]

Before I call I want to make sure I am doing this correctly. Does it matter which outlet I plug the red cord into? When I put the red prong into the right side of the electrical box, it comes up with a different reading. This outlet matches what the rest of my house reads, but is often a little bit. Now my other side of my kitchen and garage read something completely different. The third picture is in my garage.

I just noticed your test leads aren't installed on the meter correctly. I'm not familiar with that model so it may not matter for this test, but you should have one lead in the COM and the other in Input. And no, when testing AC it doesn't matter which lead is which.

Can you fix the leads, and then lets do a full set of tests on one receptacle. Hot to neutral (left slot to right slot), neutral to ground (left slot to bottom hole), and hot to ground (right slot to bottom hole).

 

[Livinlocal]

I just noticed your test leads aren't installed on the meter correctly. I'm not familiar with that model so it may not matter for this test, but you should have one lead in the COM and the other in Input. And no, when testing AC it doesn't matter which lead is which.

Can you fix the leads, and then lets do a full set of tests on one receptacle. Hot to neutral (left slot to right slot), neutral to ground (left slot to bottom hole), and hot to ground (right slot to bottom hole).

OK I corrected the leads and conducted the test like you asked. I did the test on one of the outlets in my kitchen, then I tested another circuit with outlet in my garage, both had different readings. The first is in my kitchen, the second is in my garage. I did them in the same exact order, the only difference is the outlet in my garage is flipped upside down.

My apex also gives me a warning saying something is wrong with the incoming volts...

 

[saltyhog]

It does happen, especially with larger motors and lighting ballasts. Most modern GFCI's have fixed this problem by improving their filter circuits. If it does happen, its best to change it out. GFCI's are getting better but they still fail. You are supposed to use the "test" trip function on a GFCI monthly which few of us actually do. The newer GFCI's perform a constant self-test.

This makes me feel a lot better. I really don't have any large motors....as I said my pumps are all DC/low voltage and my lights are LED with transformers so I presume they are DC/low voltage.

 

[Brew12]

OK I corrected the leads and conducted the test like you asked. I did the test on one of the outlets in my kitchen, then I tested another circuit with outlet in my garage, both had different readings. The first is in my kitchen, the second is in my garage. I did them in the same exact order, the only difference is the outlet in my garage is flipped upside down.

My apex also gives me a warning saying something is wrong with the incoming volts...

I'm not sure what is going on. I do feel like you have a potentially serious electrical problem but I'm not comfortable even recommending what I would do next for safety reasons.

Your garage circuit looks fine but you have an issue on your other circuit where the neutral and ground are not properly bonded together. This implies that the issue is not with the utility. Some utilities are willing to help with these issues and others will not. If you have a friend who is an electrician I would give them a call and show them what you have done. You can have them message me on here if they have any questions. Otherwise, I would recommend calling an electrical contractor and have them come out.

Just so you understand what the problem is a little better. Your house is fed by a center tapped transformer so that you get 220V from hot to hot and 115V hot to neutral (the center tap). If this tap isn't properly bonded to ground you can get more than 115V, and as high as 220V, from hot to ground. Most 120V equipment is not rated to handle 220V so it can break down the insulation and possibly start a fire. It can also damage electronics.

As I said, I would love to keep helping but the next step in troubleshooting would expose you to hazards that I am not comfortable with. :(

 

[Livinlocal]

I'm not sure what is going on. I do feel like you have a potentially serious electrical problem but I'm not comfortable even recommending what I would do next for safety reasons.

Your garage circuit looks fine but you have an issue on your other circuit where the neutral and ground are not properly bonded together. This implies that the issue is not with the utility. Some utilities are willing to help with these issues and others will not. If you have a friend who is an electrician I would give them a call and show them what you have done. You can have them message me on here if they have any questions. Otherwise, I would recommend calling an electrical contractor and have them come out.

Just so you understand what the problem is a little better. Your house is fed by a center tapped transformer so that you get 220V from hot to hot and 115V hot to neutral (the center tap). If this tap isn't properly bonded to ground you can get more than 115V, and as high as 220V, from hot to ground. Most 120V equipment is not rated to handle 220V so it can break down the insulation and possibly start a fire. It can also damage electronics.

As I said, I would love to keep helping but the next step in troubleshooting would expose you to hazards that I am not comfortable with. :(

OK thank you for all of the help, I can tell something is definitely off because of the different readings. I’m going to shut the main breaker off to the house and open up the panel to see if anything has come loose.

 

[anit77]

OK thank you for all of the help, I can tell something is definitely off because of the different readings. I’m going to shut the main breaker off to the house and open up the panel to see if anything has come loose.

Have you ever done any residential or commercial wiring yourself? If you haven't or never installed a breaker before, I would follow Brew's lead and call an electrician out. If you somehow cross the two feed lines you're going to be in for one hellofa jolt. Getting shocked by 120v ain't so bad but 220 is no joke.

In the mean time I wouldn't use that kitchen circuit for anything until it's been looked at and fixed. Another thing you can do is check the voltage on other outlets on the same circuit as that kitchen one giving the off readings. If you're seeing the same kind of numbers it'd be good to go flip that breaker off until it's looked at.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

I should add that one of the main reasons for asking is because of a very misleading video. The video shows a guy putting a cord in a bucket with a ground probe with the breaker not tripping and voltage not dropping.

I'm not sure if this video is intentionally misleading or if the guy just didn't have a clue but I have been asked to make a video debunking the video in question and showing how it really works. I'm not big on social media (this is about the only forum I ever use) but I'll consider it if there is a strong need.

I had no idea what went into buying or installing one of these. after watching a minute of a YouTube video I bought 2 on eBay for $22 total. Cheapest redundancy I’ve bought to date for this hobby

 

[rkpetersen]

I use a grounding probe, and a GFCI. As mentioned in another thread, I've placed a 1000 ohm resistor inline to theoretically reduce the probability of the GFCI tripping from a minor current leak that is of no immediate threat to the livestock, myself or my house. Regarding the risk of a GFCI tripping inappropriately, I'm concerned about this possibility even if unlikely. It's one thing if I'm home or near home; the UPS will kick in, I'll get a text about the problem, and I can go fix it. But if I'm out of town, there are many issues I can address remotely but this is not one of them. So when I leave home for a few days, my prep checklist includes plugging the system into a non-GFCI outlet.

 

[SeaCreature]

I am new to the hobby and was originally planning on using a ground probe but after reading all the various pros and cons became very unsure and confused. For now just decided to make sure I have rubber soles on any time I put my hand in the tank.

 

[SeaCreature]

I am new to the hobby and was originally planning on using a ground probe but after reading all the various pros and cons became very unsure and confused. For now just decided to make sure I have rubber soles on any time I put my hand in the tank.

If you use a grounding probe how will you know you have an issue.

 

[stevieduk]

my finger is my ground probe. If i get a tingle , i ork my way through all the equipment in the tank till the tingle stops. I did read somwhere that you can use a multi meter to test for stray voltage, put the earth probe on a good earthing point and the live probe in the water, and see if you get a reading

 

[five.five-six]

It makes my GFCI trip every time I use it so I just trashed the thing.

 

[BigJohnny]

As I understand it, my two (naked) titanium Finnex heaters do the job - correct?
Circuit for the tank is a Siemens CAFCI at the panel.

Just an FYI, I run 2 finnex titanium heaters and did not see a reduction in stray voltage until I installed a grounding probe. Mine are the HMO variety but I don't remember if they have 2 or 3 prongs.