Purple tang ich?

[pav306]

Hi guys,

Looking for an opinion from people with more experience than myself.

I have a purple tang and couple clowns in QT, they have done a full treatment of 12 days in NT Labs anti parasite (formaldehyde & copper). Then tank transfer to a clean tank.

After a week of observation the purple got a couple white spots, next day alot more spots so added cupramine, luckily only added half recommended dose as that made it over 0.5 with salifert test kit.

After 3 days in Cu the tang seems to have declined rapidly, no more spots but HLLE and stopped eating today, I have done a small water change to get the cu lever at 0.5 but would you recommend removing him from the copper?

The other fish seem fine.

And am I right to think it's Ich and not something else?

Thanks for any advise

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi guys,

Looking for an opinion from people with more experience than myself.

I have a purple tang and couple clowns in QT, they have done a full treatment of 12 days in NT Labs anti parasite (formaldehyde & copper). Then tank transfer to a clean tank.

After a week of observation the purple got a couple white spots, next day alot more spots so added cupramine, luckily only added half recommended dose as that made it over 0.5 with salifert test kit.

After 3 days in Cu the tang seems to have declined rapidly, no more spots but HLLE and stopped eating today, I have done a small water change to get the cu lever at 0.5 but would you recommend removing him from the copper?

The other fish seem fine.

And am I right to think it's Ich and not something else?

Thanks for any advise

This fish has both ich and HLLE suggesting it needs a step up on tank conditions and diet. Focus first on the ich , then HLLE can be addressed. A freshwater dip will offer temporary relief IF fish is not breathing heavily but also not necessary. After dip, You will need to place fish in Quarantine tank and treat with Coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off
A quarantine tank can be as simple as a starter kit from Walmart which most of the needed essentials.

Afterwards, continue to maintain water quality when returned to display after Fallow period and offer some foods such as:
LRS herbivore diet
Formula 2 flake and frozen
TDO Pellets
small plankton
Hikari Marine cuisine
Ocean nutrition veggie diet
spirulina brine shrimp
mysis shrimp
Prime reef
Nori seaweed basted with garlic extract

Add selcon vitamins to foods occasionally

 

[threebuoys]

Hi guys,

Looking for an opinion from people with more experience than myself.

I have a purple tang and couple clowns in QT, they have done a full treatment of 12 days in NT Labs anti parasite (formaldehyde & copper). Then tank transfer to a clean tank.

After a week of observation the purple got a couple white spots, next day alot more spots so added cupramine, luckily only added half recommended dose as that made it over 0.5 with salifert test kit.

After 3 days in Cu the tang seems to have declined rapidly, no more spots but HLLE and stopped eating today, I have done a small water change to get the cu lever at 0.5 but would you recommend removing him from the copper?

The other fish seem fine.

And am I right to think it's Ich and not something else?

Thanks for any advise

0.5 is the correct dose for cupramine. Do Not mix cupramine with other sources of copper. I am not familiar with the NT Labs anti-parasite product so I do not know if it is compatible with cupramine or Copper Power or CopperSafe. To mix different copper formulations could create significant issues. While cupramine is dosed at 0.5ppm, Coppersafe and Copper Power are dosed at 2.5 ppm.
Keep an eye of other water quality measures. If the QT is not cycled, pay particular attention to ammonia. However, do not use ammonia treatment conditioners to combat high ammonia as they may increase the toxicity of the copper. Use water changes instead.

 

[pav306]

Not sure if you read my description or not, it already is in a QT tank, and is already in copper (cupramine)

The HLLE is from the copper, was fine before adding (it also had hlle from NT Labs treatment, cleared up after a few days in fresh water)

Ammonia is 0 (alert tag - can't use test kit due to copper but was 0 on test kit before adding copper)

The QT is fed a mix of frozen brine, mysis and fresh nori, all soaked in vitamin supliments.

 

[pav306]

Thanks,

So would you agree it's ich? My lfs has said it's stress spots not ich

 

[threebuoys]

Not sure if you read my description or not, it already is in a QT tank, and is already in copper (cupramine)

The HLLE is from the copper, was fine before adding (it also had hlle from NT Labs treatment, cleared up after a few days in fresh water)

Ammonia is 0 (alert tag - can't use test kit due to copper but was 0 on test kit before adding copper)

The QT is fed a mix of frozen brine, mysis and fresh nori, all soaked in vitamin supliments.

I did notice that you were using Cupramine. We had referenced Copper Power and CopperSafe earlier in the thread so I wanted to avoid any confusion. Also, I was concerned Cupramine and the NT Labs product may have been used together originally to achieve the 0.5 concentration which could be an issue. I agree ich is the likely diagnosis.

BTW, copper has not been linked to HLLE. The most likely controllable culprit appears to be lignite (soft) activated carbon.

 

[pav306]

No the nt labs was in a previous tank, before a tank transfer, then observed for a week or so before noticing new spots, so certain there is no cross contamination of medications - I learned that the hard way previousy

There has been no carbon in this system so hlle is definitely not from that, plus i have read several sources that copper can cause temporary hlle on tangs during treatment with copper (found after researching why he had hlle during 1st treatment with nt labs), I'm sure at least 1 post was on here too. Both times he has been exposed to copper he got hlle, fine before and between treatments.

My main question was for diagnosis confirmation and weather the copper treatment should be stopped and another method used due to his negative reaction to the cupramine.

I'm in the UK so copper power ect. is hard to come by.

I thought ich initially but told by lfs it's too big to be ich so it's stress spots, I doubted that so wanted to be confirmed by someone with greater experience, I would rather not expose him to copper for full treatment if not needed.

Thanks for the help

 

[threebuoys]

No the nt labs was in a previous tank, before a tank transfer, then observed for a week or so before noticing new spots, so certain there is no cross contamination of medications - I learned that the hard way previousy

There has been no carbon in this system so hlle is definitely not from that, plus i have read several sources that copper can cause temporary hlle on tangs during treatment with copper (found after researching why he had hlle during 1st treatment with nt labs), I'm sure at least 1 post was on here too. Both times he has been exposed to copper he got hlle, fine before and between treatments.

My main question was for diagnosis confirmation and weather the copper treatment should be stopped and another method used due to his negative reaction to the cupramine.

I'm in the UK so copper power ect. is hard to come by.

I thought ich initially but told by lfs it's too big to be ich so it's stress spots, I doubted that so wanted to be confirmed by someone with greater experience, I would rather not expose him to copper for full treatment if not needed.

Thanks for the help

No doubt that many of the spots are larger than what would be expected from ich. They could be mucus plugs that tend to occur with some frequency on tangs. The larger ones that are not as crisp could also be residual temporary scaring which occurs when ich or flukes leave the body of the fish. If you observe spots coming and going rather than remaining in place for days, ich would be a more likely diagnosis.

Since you have already started copper treatment, I would keep it in place for the full 30 days recommended to ensure any possible ich or velvet are eliminated.

I understand your concern about the potential HLLE side effect due to copper. While some have theorized copper to be the cause, it has not be definitively determine to be true. Lesions that appear quickly are less likely to be HLLE that than some other infection due to water quality or other issues.

Perhaps you have seen this article that was written by @Jay Hemdal regarding HLLE. Given that you haven't used GAC and the lesions appeared in just a couple of days, I'm suspicious what you see may be something other than true HLLE.

Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE)

This article discusses studies performed regarding head and lateral line erosion in captive fishes. Specifically, carbon use and nutrition as they relate to this syndrome.

www.reef2reef.com

Cupramine is a more harsh copper treatment that the others, so it is very important not to exceed the prescribed dosage. Also why I mentioned the need to not use chemicals described as ammonia removers during the copper treatment. Some ammonia removers will cause some copper compounds to break apart becoming more toxic in the process.

Jay may have more insight into the HLLE question.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks,

So would you agree it's ich? My lfs has said it's stress spots not ich

Its Marine ich

 

[vetteguy53081]

Not sure if you read my description or not, it already is in a QT tank, and is already in copper (cupramine)

The HLLE is from the copper, was fine before adding (it also had hlle from NT Labs treatment, cleared up after a few days in fresh water)

Ammonia is 0 (alert tag - can't use test kit due to copper but was 0 on test kit before adding copper)

The QT is fed a mix of frozen brine, mysis and fresh nori, all soaked in vitamin supliments.

What level copper are you using and how are you testing and how long did you treat previously?
Ammonia alert notorious for false reading and work for freshwater- Not worth anything. A reliable test kit is a must. Test kits can detect ammonia if a reliable test kit.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

My take on this is that the tang does have marine ich, and may also have mucus plugs (stress spots). However, the number of spots are only moderate, so something else is going on that is keeping the fish from feeding properly.

Can you post a video so I can see the respiration rate?

While copper has been frequently implicated in causing HLLE, the only demonstrated cause (two studies) is activated carbon use. The carbon use may have been from before you acquired the fish, there is some degree of lag. If copper is a cause, it is only ionic copper that could do that (and I'm not sure what form the NT lab product is in). I've quarantined thousands of fish in coppersafe with no HLLE showing up.

Jay