Pyramid Butterflyfish Flukes?

2AReefer92

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I have a 30 Gallon QT tank up and running with 5 fish. Yellow Eye Kole Tang, x2 False Percula Clownfish, Pyramid Butterflyfish, and a Black Molly. All of these fish except for the molly have been in QT for slightly over one month. The tank is currently running with 2.5PPM+ of copper power.

Background on the butterflyfish… When I received the fish it was in rough shape. It has a damaged beak, torn fins and was very skinny. I managed to get it eating and now it has totally transformed into a (seemingly) healthy fish. However, one thing I noticed after looking really close at its body was all these opaque and iridescent dots on the fish. I've noticed this the first day I received the fish and always thought it was missing scales. But looking closer today… I’m thinking it might be flukes? I have never dealt with flukes before so I’m unsure. If memory serves when I got the fish these “spots” were only on one side of the fish. Now it is clearly on both. I have attached the best pictures I could get of this active guy for ID help. You can see the spots most clearly on the white area of the fish.

Also, none of the other fish have any signs of these same markings after one month.. (Another reason why I wasn’t worried before) Is it true flukes can be species specific?

FYI - I LOVE this fish..... So much personality....Thanks, everyone!:)

IMG_2090.jpeg IMG_2094.jpeg
 

Punchanello

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I would do a freshwater dip and that will tell you very quickly if it is flukes. I've had no issues using prazi when the flukes are confirmed.
 
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2AReefer92

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I would do a freshwater dip and that will tell you very quickly if it is flukes. I've had no issues using prazi when the flukes are confirmed.

I am a bit nervous to do that.... I have heard you have to use a PH buffer to match the tank water. Is this true? I do not have PH buffer on hand.
 

Punchanello

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I am a bit nervous to do that.... I have heard you have to use a PH buffer to match the tank water. Is this true? I do not have PH buffer on hand.

No, I have never used a PH buffer. I was nervous at first too but I've done a bunch of fish like this with no issues. Just make sure the water is well aerated and the temperature is matched. at the 5 minute mark the flukes if they are there will start to drop off.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Pyramid butterflies = Neobenedenia almost every time. These are egg laying flukes, praziquantel won’t fully control them. From what I see in the pic, your fish has Neo. As mentioned, do a five minute FW dip, just match the temp, don’t worry about the pH. Look at the bottom of the dip container after you put the fish back....Neo will look like white ovals at the bottom. This will buy you some time. Siphoning the bottom will help remove some of the eggs. If you go with prazi, you’ll need to do 3 doses, 10 days apart. I now rely on hyposalinity for 35 days, but not all fish will tolerate that...you need to go Really low; 16 ppt or about 1.012.

Jay
 

Punchanello

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Yes, as Jay says, they look like white ovals. Almost exactly like sesame seeds in size and shape.
 
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2AReefer92

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Pyramid butterflies = Neobenedenia almost every time. These are egg laying flukes, praziquantel won’t fully control them. From what I see in the pic, your fish has Neo. As mentioned, do a five minute FW dip, just match the temp, don’t worry about the pH. Look at the bottom of the dip container after you put the fish back....Neo will look like white ovals at the bottom. This will buy you some time. Siphoning the bottom will help remove some of the eggs. If you go with prazi, you’ll need to do 3 doses, 10 days apart. I now rely on hyposalinity for 35 days, but not all fish will tolerate that...you need to go Really low; 16 ppt or about 1.012.

Jay
Thank you! Do I have to worry about the other fish having/carrying these flukes? Or is this butterflyfish specific? So if I separate the other fish can just focus on treating the butterfly?
 

Jay Hemdal

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Thank you! Do I have to worry about the other fish having/carrying these flukes? Or is this butterflyfish specific? So if I separate the other fish can just focus on treating the butterfly?
Yes, a number of other species can get Neo, I even had a garden eel get it once. Angels and butterflies for sure are issues. You’ll need to treat everything in the tank, the FW dip just buys you some time. The Neo eggs have sticky tendrils, so they get moved around easily on tank tools.
Jay
 

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Interestingly, I found this thread doing a Google search about the same thing. I received my order of three from L.A and noticed two of them have these "eruptions" on one side and one of them has even a little "white bubble" or inflammation of some sort.

I will also try the FW dip on all three for 5 minutes, then put them back into the tank and maybe do a dip in Rally RubyReef Pro. Anything else we can do to treat these?

IMG_2153.JPG
 

Jay Hemdal

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That white bubble isn’t Neobenedenia, not sure what it is though. The FW dip is just a diagnostic tool, and to buy some time for you to get an effective treatment....hyposalinity for example.

Jay
 

TriggerFan

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Two of them also show the same eruptions as the OP posted, so I assume it is Neo as well.
My photo only shows the "other" issue with one of them.

Copper Power won't don anything at all for it? All three are in a 40-gallon breeder with 2.0ppm of Copper Power. I just started lowering salinity and will do a FW dip in a moment and then another bath in Rally RubyReef, then back to the tank. Anything else I can do?
 

JumboShrimp

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When you describe "all these opaque and iridescent dots on the fish," are they large, or small? I had a Pyramid with one or two spots like what you are describing, and one was the size of a dime. Very strange; then a few scales came off, like it had been an a fight (although that was not the case). It looked like yours in your first two photos, including the mouth. I tried many courses of treatment, but it stayed perpetually 'marginally-sick.' It died after about 8 months. Hope your journey is a better one. Best wishes.
 

TriggerFan

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I would also like to hear from OP and any results seen after FW dip.
From my end:
1) FW dip for 6 minutes - Barely saw (if any) any signs of flukes. Maybe one or two little white spots
2) Added RubyRallyReef and left for another 2 minutes. Didn't see any signs.
3) While waiting those 6 minutes, I removed from water from QT and added RODI water and lowered salinity to 1.019.
4) Added fish back to QT
5) I will slowly keep lowering salinity to 1.012, then bring CopperPower levels to 2.00ppm

Interestingly, I only see a small bump or two now in the two fish that I previously saw more.
This is the first time also that I am clearly able to see how the scales look. I wonder if the " iridescent dots" were indeed flukes or just shadowing from light in the scales. Their scales look different from say, my tangs. LOL
 
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2AReefer92

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UPDATE: Well... I am not sure what to think now. I performed the 6 minute FW dip as recommended. Other than the fish jumping out into my hands... it was uneventful. (I learned to put something over the top now). NO sign of flukes. The weird shapes are still on the fish and nothing came off the fish except two scales. I looked at them really close and since I'm a fisherman, I could tell they were scales. I know its not Ich or Velvet... (I've dealt with both of those) So I'm at a loss. The fish acts really healthy otherwise. Eats like pig and is very active.

Any other thoughts or ideas? Could it be a weird reaction to the copper or just missing scales?
 

TriggerFan

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Well.. I think we are both on the same boat here. I did see a slight difference in fish now, but can't tell if it was due to the FW dip or because I had to change 75% of water to do hypersalinity to 1.012.
I will run this salinity for 10 days (unless it is recommended to run for longer) and see if it helps.

At this point, I am really reluctant to add this trio to my DT after I have spent months of QTing other fish that are really healthy until I can see / tell they are doing OK. This will obviously take longer than 30 days.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Well.. I think we are both on the same boat here. I did see a slight difference in fish now, but can't tell if it was due to the FW dip or because I had to change 75% of water to do hypersalinity to 1.012.
I will run this salinity for 10 days (unless it is recommended to run for longer) and see if it helps.

At this point, I am really reluctant to add this trio to my DT after I have spent months of QTing other fish that are really healthy until I can see / tell they are doing OK. This will obviously take longer than 30 days.
I generally run hyposalinity for 30 days, especially for Neo. Remember to come up VERY slowly at the end, I’ve taken 5 days to go back to 1.025 SG.

Jay
 

Thaxxx

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Im not a disease expert for sure, but I have a Pyrimid Butterfly I've had for quite awhile. I got him with upper lip damage. Got him through QT. No dipping, just copper. Mine currently has, and has always had missing scales. They look exactly like your picture. The scales are either bigger than on most fish, or because they are white, a missing one really shows up clearly. He is now my most aggressive eater by far. Dispite the upper lip missing. Very fat and healthy. I would like to see your results with the FW dip, and or hypo.
Good luck with him.
 
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2AReefer92

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Im not a disease expert for sure, but I have a Pyrimid Butterfly I've had for quite awhile. I got him with upper lip damage. Got him through QT. No dipping, just copper. Mine currently has, and has always had missing scales. They look exactly like your picture. The scales are either bigger than on most fish, or because they are white, a missing one really shows up clearly. He is now my most aggressive eater by far. Dispite the upper lip missing. Very fat and healthy. I would like to see your results with the FW dip, and or hypo.
Good luck with him.
Thaxxx - Thank you for your insights! The more I look at the fish, I still see missing scales. I am not one for taking risks, but I think I will be adding him to the display when the QT is done then:) I will update after a few months in the display.
 

TriggerFan

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I will be expecting your final thoughts on this OP. I believe that @Thaxxx may be correct in his statement. I did a 75% water change and this time the water is crystalline. I have AI Prime HDs on my QTs (I know, I know, but's all I have) and maybe the disco effect makes the missing scales more prominent.

Now, I still see some slight bumps, is this normal. Just a few. I also have not been able to find out what could that white bubble be or how to treat if required. Ironically, these fish are so slim, yet they eat like pigs since day two. Absolutely everything I have thrown in the mix, the devour! LOL

They are very active and aside the issues mentioned in the thread, I think they may make it. Please bear with my ignorance, can I do both Hypo-salinity and Copper Power or would this be too much?
 
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