RODI filter Help

[CristinaNTimothy]

90% if the time when someone calls in and said "my system dropped pressure and it slowed to a trickle" it was because they left the flush kit open.

9% of the time it was because they switched to off brand 1 or 0.5 micron sediment filters that clogged almost immediately.

1% of the time something really obscure and we got to really dig in :)

In my case the flush valve wasn’t open and the filters I bought are a generic brand I did get on amazon. Now the sediment filter wouldn’t be an issue as I’ve got a bunch of them I bought a while back and have replaced a few without issues. I did replace the rest and presto, water pressure drop.
I’ve inspected all lines, fittings and filters numerous times but nothing changes…
It’s an anomaly indeed but I will keep testing and get this sorted out. Hopefully

 

[UncommonSense]

If you do choose to run a 1 micron sediment filter, it’s best to use a graded density version so it doesn’t clog as fast.

I used to have no issues getting 12 months out of a 10”x2.5” RO.Z 1micron graded sediment filter on my municipality’s water quality, but turbidity has jumped up in recent years… I now run a RO.Z 5micron “prefilter” in an add-on housing to reach that service interval reliably…

report back if I may

By all means! I’m always interested in the “culprit” behind these odd RODI issues, and it could help someone else in your position whom reads this in the future!

 

[Ryan - Serious Reefs]

Thanks for the time taken for clarification, I will set this up tomorrow and perform a variety of tests that were mentioned today and report back if I may. Thanks again for your time and help in this matter it’s greatly appreciated.

In regard to the flush valve I leave it in the open position because that’s the last step of me making water… flush lines for a few secs then shut water, yes it is closed when making water. But now I just may run it a little longer as mentioned above according to BRS.

Can you measure how much waste and product water you get?

A 100 GPD system should produce about 261 milliliters of product water in a minute.

Waste water might be about three times that 783 ml/min . Waterbox doesn't state the waste to product water ratio or the flow restrictor they use so it is hard to pin an exact number.

Knowing this will help identify the severity of the problem.

 

[CristinaNTimothy]

Ahhhhhh there is something I totally forgot about that I just remembered, now how I didn’t think of this but it just came into my thoughts.

While changing filters my faucet connection part hit the concrete floor in the garage and it cracked, so I couldn’t find a replacement anywhere here in Canada (Lows/Rona, home depo, home hardware etc) so I bought a copper compression fitting and put that on. What’s the chance this is the issue or am I overthinking this?

Can you measure how much waste and product water you get?

A 100 GPD system should produce about 261 milliliters of product water in a minute.

Waste water might be about three times that 783 ml/min . Waterbox doesn't state the waste to product water ratio or the flow restrictor they use so it is hard to pin an exact number.

Knowing this will help identify the severity of the problem.

Absolutely, I will add this to the tests I will
Perform tomorrow and will report back with my results.
Thanks for the help and insight provided

 

[Ryan - Serious Reefs]

In my case the flush valve wasn’t open and the filters I bought are a generic brand I did get on amazon. Now the sediment filter wouldn’t be an issue as I’ve got a bunch of them I bought a while back and have replaced a few without issues. I did replace the rest and presto, water pressure drop.
I’ve inspected all lines, fittings and filters numerous times but nothing changes…
It’s an anomaly indeed but I will keep testing and get this sorted out. Hopefully

If you want to see how much each filter affects pressure, remove them and run the system without any prefilters first. Note the pressure. Then install just the sediment filter and check it again. Finally, add the carbon block and note the pressure one more time.

At that point, you’ll know more about how those filters affect pressure in your system than the vast majority of reefers.

You might hear that running the system without prefilters could allow chlorine to damage the membrane. In reality, that concern is overstated. It would take significantly longer exposure, on the order of hundreds of times longer, to cause any meaningful harm.

 

[UncommonSense]

What’s the chance this is the issue or am I overthinking this?

This could 100% be the issue!!

— did you use a plastic or metal “ferrule” (a little sleeve you slip inside the tube to prevent it from crushing with the compression sleeve)?

 

[CristinaNTimothy]

If you want to see how much each filter affects pressure, remove them and run the system without any prefilters first. Note the pressure. Then install just the sediment filter and check it again. Finally, add the carbon block and note the pressure one more time.

At that point, you’ll know more about how those filters affect pressure in your system than the vast majority of reefers.

You might hear that running the system without prefilters could allow chlorine to damage the membrane. In reality, that concern is overstated. It would take significantly longer exposure, on the order of hundreds of times longer, to cause any meaningful harm.

This is valuable information and noted. Will add this as well. Good to know and something I should have thought of but it’s a learning process and I will note this for sure.

 

[CristinaNTimothy]

This could 100% be the issue!!

— did you use a plastic or metal “ferrule” (a little sleeve you slip inside the tube to prevent it from crushing with the compression sleeve)?

It was a copper metal part that slipped on the plastic before the connector was installed.
So yes a metal sleeve

Just gave it a quick inspection, doesn’t look compromised or crushed… as far as I can see/tell anyways

 

[UncommonSense]

It was a copper metal part that slipped on the plastic before the connector was installed.
So yes a metal sleeve

Just gave it a quick inspection, doesn’t look compromised or crushed… as far as I can see/tell anyways

Ah, I’m referring to these funny little inserts that go inside the end of the 1/4” RO line!

Your compression sleeve is copper, vs. this pictured plastic one, but the “ferrule” part is pictured in copper here; it is designed to prevent the tube from crushing when fully compressed!


— However, If your copper sleeve clearly isn’t smashing the tube shut, this likely isn’t the issue here!

 

[mcarroll]

Membrane is not in backwards?

Agree with Ryan's question about the system's waste ratio.

So far, based on the evidence we see, you made some error in the installation of the new filters.

Membrane is the most likely to be wrong, but there are probably ways to install DI and other carts "wrong" too.

The only question beyond the evidence is your potential community water restrictions that were mentioned earier. IMO verify that before you waste any more effort. Timing is awfully coincidental to your filter change, but strange things happen!

If your tap is just getting 40 psi now, then you're chasing a ghost and nothing is wrong.

 

[CristinaNTimothy]

Ah, I’m referring to these funny little inserts that go inside the end of the 1/4” RO line!

Your compression sleeve is copper, vs. this pictured plastic one, but the “ferrule” part is pictured in copper here; it is designed to prevent the tube from crushing when fully compressed!


— However, If your copper sleeve clearly isn’t smashing the tube shut, this likely isn’t the issue here!

Ahh thanks for the clarification. No I never inserted those into the line nor did I have them in the pack so I didn’t know that was an issue. I only had the ball looking metal part that has a hole through it that I slipped into the line and the installed from there.

But yes nothing looks obstructed.

 

[CristinaNTimothy]

Membrane is not in backwards?

Agree with Ryan's question about the system's waste ratio.

So far, based on the evidence we see, you made some error in the installation of the new filters.

Membrane is the most likely to be wrong, but there are probably ways to install DI and other carts "wrong" too.

The only question beyond the evidence is your potential community water restrictions that were mentioned earier. IMO verify that before you waste any more effort. Timing is awfully coincidental to your filter change, but strange things happen!

If your tap is just getting 40 psi now, then you're chasing a ghost and nothing is wrong.

So true.

In regard to filter installation errors I don’t believe this is correct, or I don’t think so anyway. I guess you can’t mess up sediment, carbon and for the rest I took out and managed to look and replace accordingly to how it came out. I may have made an error as these things do happen but I just took out and put back the same way it came out but I will definitely give it a go again, never know.

 

[CristinaNTimothy]

I do thank everyone who has taken the time to respond, teach and troubleshoot with me. I will perform a series of test and take photos of my installation of filters etc ( if I may) and post back here tomorrow. Hopefully this gets sorted out soon.

Again appreciate everyone and all your valuable time and insight

 

[mcarroll]

So true.

In regard to filter installation errors I don’t believe this is correct, or I don’t think so anyway. I guess you can’t mess up sediment, carbon and for the rest I took out and managed to look and replace accordingly to how it came out. I may have made an error as these things do happen but I just took out and put back the same way it came out but I will definitely give it a go again, never know.

I guess I didn't quite finish my point.....either you missed something, as you say, OR....there's (more) missing evidence.

(Did I miss it and you already re-checked the waste:product water ratio?)

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

Sorry to be late to the game here folks. Did a quick read through the entire thread. Two things stuck with me:

1. A ball valve on the concentrate (aka waste water) line is NOT a good approach to customize the concentrate flow. If you want to do this, you'd use a needle valve. But even then, on the very low flow systems most widely used in this hobby a needle valve does not work great. It works perfectly on commercial RO systems where you have much higher flows and flow gauges on the concentrate and permeate lines. For nearly all users in the hobby with residential-scale RODI's (meaning systems with 1812 membranes), I'd steer clear of an adjustable flow restrictor. And certainly, don't think about an adjustable flow restrictor "as a way to control your pressure." More on this if people are interested.

2. Post No. 28 in this thread shows the OP's capillary flow restrictor. But the restrictor is missing its "tail" (capillary tube). There are capillary flow restrictors out there that are made without a tail (e.g., we have them for 150 gpd membranes), but I can't say I've ever seen a green 50 gpd restrictor without one. For $4, this is a good place to start is solving this mystery. It may be that in some of your assembly/disassembly the restrictor was damaged? With less than adequate flow restriction on the concentrate tube the pressure on your gauge would be less than expected.

Russ

 

[CristinaNTimothy]

I guess I didn't quite finish my point.....either you missed something, as you say, OR....there's (more) missing evidence.

(Did I miss it and you already re-checked the waste:product water ratio?)

Totally understood.
No you haven’t missed the ratio yet. I will do this later today and report back. Thanks

 

[CristinaNTimothy]

Sorry to be late to the game here folks. Did a quick read through the entire thread. Two things stuck with me:

1. A ball valve on the concentrate (aka waste water) line is NOT a good approach to customize the concentrate flow. If you want to do this, you'd use a needle valve. But even then, on the very low flow systems most widely used in this hobby a needle valve does not work great. It works perfectly on commercial RO systems where you have much higher flows and flow gauges on the concentrate and permeate lines. For nearly all users in the hobby with residential-scale RODI's (meaning systems with 1812 membranes), I'd steer clear of an adjustable flow restrictor. And certainly, don't think about an adjustable flow restrictor "as a way to control your pressure." More on this if people are interested.

2. Post No. 28 in this thread shows the OP's capillary flow restrictor. But the restrictor is missing its "tail" (capillary tube). There are capillary flow restrictors out there that are made without a tail (e.g., we have them for 150 gpd membranes), but I can't say I've ever seen a green 50 gpd restrictor without one. For $4, this is a good place to start is solving this mystery. It may be that in some of your assembly/disassembly the restrictor was damaged? With less than adequate flow restriction on the concentrate tube the pressure on your gauge would be less than expected.

Russ

Thank you for chiming in with an informative discussion I appreciate it.

As for the first paragraph, it’s understood and will steer away from going down in that direction.

Regarding the second… interesting, quite possibly it came loose or apart own its own (if that’s even possible) or wile I was checking the fitting to see if they were compromised it detached. If that’s even possible is the case I can’t see that being the issue because I never took anything apart (line wise) until after the unit lost pressure.

Which takes me back to the question, can these restrictors with a tail come apart, break or be compromised in this capacity on its own? I’m assuming yes.

Also would you know where I can purchase these from?

Thanks again for your time.

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

The capillary tail coming loose from the body is not something we typically see. Could it happen? Sure. They are two poly pieces joined with an adhesive.

We have them here: https://www.buckeyehydro.com/capillary-flow-restrictors/

Russ

 

[Buckeye Hydro]

Because you have a 100 gpd membrane, and because you---will--- have 70 psi, even if you have reasonably cold water you may get over 100 gpd. So if you want something close to a 4:1, opt for the 100 gpd restrictor. If you want less concentrate, or your water is much colder than the 58F I guestimated, you might opt for a 75 gpd restrictor. Also consider the level of hardness in your feedwater. You could also get a 75 and a 100 restrictor and use the 75 during winter and the 100 during summer.

 

[tmcca]

@Buckeye Hydro i do think have the spectrapure 90gpd and psi is around 80. I should opt for the 100gpd? I just ordered that one. Maybe I should have got the 150 and just cut if needed.