Royal Gramma Twitching sometimes laying on side.

[KrAt0s]

Royal Gramma twitching for two days off and on. Completed 14 days in 2.5 copper power prior to being in this tank. Tank is in seperate room.

Alone in second QT tank (api gc & metro on Humblefish schedule) for 1 week now. No other fish. No other symptoms.

Aquarium Parameters:

10 Gallon Quarantine tank

Fluval Hang on Back w/ siporax media / no floss

Lighting: Fluval led

Aquarium established for 3 months, previously quarantined new clownfish / no signs of disease.

Water quality

Temperature: 78° (aquarium heater reading verified with external thermometer.

Salinity / specific gravity: 1.026

Ammonia: 0 ppm

Nitrite: 0 ppm

Nitrate: 5 ppm


Day 0 October 29th, 2024

Transferred to new QT tank. No copper water transferred.


Day 1 October 30th, 2024

Fish acclimating to new tank


Day 2 10/31

Dose Metro into water column

Feed 1x day API GC + Focus


Day 3 11/1

Feed 1x day API GC + Focus


Day 4 11/2

Feed 1x day API GC + Focus

Dose API GC into water column


Day 5 11/3

Feed 1x day API GC + Focus


Day 6 11/4

Feed 1x day API GC + Focus

Dose Metro into water column

Fed newly hatched baby brine shrimp.

Started twitching this evening.

Tested water. Nothing out of the ordinary. Performed large water change and fish seemed to recover.

Day 7

Feed 1x day API GC + Focus fish was eating but less than normal.

Fish fine until around 5pm, twitching behavior resumed.

75% water change was done prior to fish being added to tank. Filter media was rinsed in tank water.

In-depth information:

No fish lost to this problem before, or at all for this tank. Did lose a tomini tang in copper to a bacterial infection in the previous tank with this royal gramma.

No invertebrates in the tank.

Respiration rate: difficult to tell

Fish is eating tdo chroma boost with gc / focus mix. Also mysis shrimp on occasion.

Only remedies tried where water changes, leaving lights off.

Fish also seems to be somewhat stressed by air stone / sponge filter that is being used to oxygenate the water.

 

[KrAt0s]

@Jay Hemdal this is the fish that was originally with the Tomini that had a sudden bacterial infection in 2-3 days. No signs of that here that I’ve seen. Thread 'Tomini Tang bacterial infection?'

 

[KrAt0s]

Sorry link to last thread is https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tomini-tang-bacterial-infection.1078750/

 

[vetteguy53081]

The fish is jerking back and forth which is weird, nut does not display fluke symptoms.
Is fish eating ?

 

[KrAt0s]

The fish is jerking back and forth which is weird, nut does not display fluke symptoms.
Is fish eating ?

Yes, still eating but very little in comparison to previous week.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yes, still eating but very little in comparison to previous week.

Are you medicating this tank with anything?
I would not add GC to food

 

[KrAt0s]

Are you medicating this tank with anything?
I would not add GC to food

Yes I’m using the 1 tbsp of food with 1/8 tsp of gc and 1/8 tsp of focus. Following the humblefish prophylactic treatment routine. Also adding gc and metro to the water per the same routine.

 

[KrAt0s]

Update, Gramma seems better but was still twitching at least once in the evening. Eating continues to slow.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes I’m using the 1 tbsp of food with 1/8 tsp of gc and 1/8 tsp of focus. Following the humblefish prophylactic treatment routine. Also adding gc and metro to the water per the same routine.

Oh, don't do that, that information is flawed. General Cure is a mix of metronidazole and praziquantel. Those drugs have two different oral doses, so GC cannot be used orally. Also, adding GC to the water increases the fish's exposure to these drugs.

Metronidazole is very bitter. At higher doses, fish will stop feeding on food dosed with it. The proper dose is 1% metro by weight in the food.

Oral meds are difficult to do correctly:

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods Jay Hemdal c. 2020 Oral medications are an excellent way to target internal diseases of fishes. Marine fish absorb aquarium water, so in certain cases, they “drink” enough medication from the water to effect a cure. However, freshwater fish actively export...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[KrAt0s]

Oh, don't do that, that information is flawed. General Cure is a mix of metronidazole and praziquantel. Those drugs have two different oral doses, so GC cannot be used orally. Also, adding GC to the water increases the fish's exposure to these drugs.

Metronidazole is very bitter. At higher doses, fish will stop feeding on food dosed with it. The proper dose is 1% metro by weight in the food.

Oral meds are difficult to do correctly:

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods Jay Hemdal c. 2020 Oral medications are an excellent way to target internal diseases of fishes. Marine fish absorb aquarium water, so in certain cases, they “drink” enough medication from the water to effect a cure. However, freshwater fish actively export...

www.reef2reef.com

@Jay Hemdal , so for prophylactic treatment do you recommend just GC in the water spaced by 7-8 days? Also for every other day that doesn’t have GC I dosed metro into the water. Is that ok / good / reasonable?

A great read, thank you! After reading that I wonder if improperly soaked food is what the cause was. I stopped with the GC soaked food since @vetteguy53081 let me know so hopefully it’s not too late. Thank you!

“Metronidazole is so bitter that fish won’t eat food treated with it above about 5000 ppm. Praziquantel shows nervous system reactions at about double the normal dose of 40 mg/kg of fish mass. Because those two drugs are dosed differently, that is why you CANNOT dose it properly in food when they are mixed in a single powder.“

 

[vetteguy53081]

@Jay Hemdal , so for prophylactic treatment do you recommend just GC in the water spaced by 7-8 days? Also for every other day that doesn’t have GC I dosed metro into the water. Is that ok / good / reasonable?

A great read, thank you! After reading that I wonder if improperly soaked food is what the cause was. I stopped with the GC soaked food since @vetteguy53081 let me know so hopefully it’s not too late. Thank you!

“Metronidazole is so bitter that fish won’t eat food treated with it above about 5000 ppm. Praziquantel shows nervous system reactions at about double the normal dose of 40 mg/kg of fish mass. Because those two drugs are dosed differently, that is why you CANNOT dose it properly in food when they are mixed in a single powder.“

These are worse case scenarios. Prazi- treat at 85% OF RECOMMENDED AND AGAIN, PULL OFF OF METRO.
GC itself which takes a couple of days to work should be sufficient

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal , so for prophylactic treatment do you recommend just GC in the water spaced by 7-8 days? Also for every other day that doesn’t have GC I dosed metro into the water. Is that ok / good / reasonable?

A great read, thank you! After reading that I wonder if improperly soaked food is what the cause was. I stopped with the GC soaked food since @vetteguy53081 let me know so hopefully it’s not too late. Thank you!

“Metronidazole is so bitter that fish won’t eat food treated with it above about 5000 ppm. Praziquantel shows nervous system reactions at about double the normal dose of 40 mg/kg of fish mass. Because those two drugs are dosed differently, that is why you CANNOT dose it properly in food when they are mixed in a single powder.“

Yes - I would dose GC as you described. It is also safe to augment that with metro additions to the water.

 

[KrAt0s]

@Jay Hemdal gramma still doing the ‘twitch’ nightly but is eating again now that the food is not medicated. Feeding music shrimp and TDO chromaboost. So the fish has completed a copper power quarantine, and a general cure / metroplex quarantine and outside of the odd behavior at night seems normal. Do you think it’s safe to move out of quarantine and into the display tank?

Also, following some of your information on bacteria that begins to consume prazi or make it less effective, what is the time period for this? The quarantine tank has been running for about 2-3 months with GC and metro doses for 2 clownfish for 2 weeks prior to this. Do you think the prazi is still effective in this tank?

Thanks for all of your help, much appreciated!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal gramma still doing the ‘twitch’ nightly but is eating again now that the food is not medicated. Feeding music shrimp and TDO chromaboost. So the fish has completed a copper power quarantine, and a general cure / metroplex quarantine and outside of the odd behavior at night seems normal. Do you think it’s safe to move out of quarantine and into the display tank?

Also, following some of your information on bacteria that begins to consume prazi or make it less effective, what is the time period for this? The quarantine tank has been running for about 2-3 months with GC and metro doses for 2 clownfish for 2 weeks prior to this. Do you think the prazi is still effective in this tank?

Thanks for all of your help, much appreciated!

Since the cause of the twitching is unknown, I would wait at least 14 days after the last treatment was concluded before moving the fish (personally, I'd wait 30 days).

The bacteria that consumes the prazi grows bad on each dose. How many doses has the tank had? Generally, you start to see serious issues after 5 doses in a given tank.

 

[KrAt0s]

Since the cause of the twitching is unknown, I would wait at least 14 days after the last treatment was concluded before moving the fish (personally, I'd wait 30 days).

The bacteria that consumes the prazi grows bad on each dose. How many doses has the tank had? Generally, you start to see serious issues after 5 doses in a given tank.

@Jay Hemdal 4 doses of prazi so far. Twitching was after 3rd dose for the tank and 1st for the fish.

So you'd recommend 14-30 days from the last round of General cure or Metro? I also have 2 other fish in copper now that are next up for this tank. But sounds like i need to start the cycle over again after this QT is complete?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal 4 doses of prazi so far. Twitching was after 3rd dose for the tank and 1st for the fish.

So you'd recommend 14-30 days from the last round of General cure or Metro? I also have 2 other fish in copper now that are next up for this tank. But sounds like i need to start the cycle over again after this QT is complete?

Sorry - I’m not sure of your tank scheduling needs, and how they weigh into the “waiting period”. I was just suggesting that to be safe, waiting after the last treatment is the safest course of action.