I broke the first blender... she wasn't happy! I bought a magic bullet after those pics, it's brilliant for this job
So ICH management it is, I guess
- Thread starter rockstarta78
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No, no, no... do fish clean the guts out before they eat in the wild?
If the store takes the guts out before putting fish on sale... ask them for some separately. It'll be free and it's worth it for the look on their face if nothing else!
OP
OP
rockstarta78
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WOW! Ok. I'll see if I can stomach the smell.
40B Knasty
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I read the first page then I said why am I reading this when I know how it works and the 2 most important people on R2R Humblefish and melpher who did the disease forum part told me personally how it works. Where they have been IDK. Does that change ich and how it works, NO.
40B Knasty
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Just scroll down when you click "forums." Click on Videography Forum." You will see my "Thread." It has like 1650 views & 80+ replies.
Paul B
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Of course, when fish eat fish, which they do at every meal, did you ever see them spit out bones, eyelashes, skin etc.
Ask Bobby (Humblefish) if he agrees with me that fish can be immune to ich. You may be surprised at his answer.
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Oh I thought you were talking about an ich thing.
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I have great respect for both humblefish and melypr1985, and all the members of the reefsquad. However, to blindly follow one or two people's advice and thoughts without conducting your own research is, to me, at best naive and at worst just plain gullible.
If science has taught us anything, it's that we should never stop questioning the status quo... to just accept what we are told is madness.
Read, research and experiment... that is how progress is made.
You never know... I may have an advanced degree in a biological science and actually know a bit about these things
40B Knasty
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Okay so do you or anyone with a degree in biological science have a cure to the status quo besides the person who made the status quo with copper treatment, no. Doesn't sound so naive now does it?I have great respect for both humblefish and melypr1985, and all the members of the reefsquad. However, to blindly follow one or two people's advice and thoughts without conducting your own research is, to me, at best naive and at worst just plain gullible.
If science has taught us anything, it's that we should never stop questioning the status quo... to just accept what we are told is madness.
Read, research and experiment... that is how progress is made.
You never know... I may have an advanced degree in a biological science and actually know a bit about these things
As a person who is in the hobby not looking to do experiments. You have to be naive to think a person is looking to do them. A hobby is not a science experiment. It is a hobby.
Being gullible would be believing anything that is not a fact. So once again I will say please do not give new hobbyist with ich present in their tank information that are not facts and make them gullible.
My point is that eradicating ich or managing ich is not the only two options. Long term immunity is a third option. As I've already stated, if the question is 'how do I get rid of ich' then you are absolutely right. We only know of 3 ways - TTM, copper or CP. If however, as in this thread, the question is about 'living with ich' then why should we not share our experiences, methods and the science behind them? It's then up to the OP as to what they decide to do.
The definition of gullible is "Easily persuaded to believe something; credulous" not a belief in all things which are not true, as you suggest... taking one piece of evidence and refusing to accept another, equally valid, piece of evidence could be described as being easily persuaded.
You are of course absolutely right... this is a hobby, not a science. A hobby built on knowledge and understanding of macro and micro biology, chemistry, biochemistry, ecology, environmental science, evolutionary biology, medicine, physics and thermo and fluid dynamics. So no, definitely not a science.
Paul B
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How do you think we found out that copper kills ich?
When I got into the hobby there were no books, experts, computers or anything else. I learned along with wholesalers and LFS owners by experimenting. I used to control ich with copper pennies. 20 pennies to the gallon. We had no test kits so we "experimented" to find the dosage.
Then we kept a few pennies in the tank to maintain the dosage which wasn't easy.
If no one experimented we would still be keeping guppies. I experimented with everything because I had to.
In doing so I learned how to keep mandarins alive and spawning as well as Moorish Idols and many other fish.
Eventually someone invented computers and the methods from Old Time experimenters became main stream and what every one is doing today is a variation of those methods. I don't have to learn about ich and it's lifecycle on the net because I was there when we were figuring that out and in the 60 years I have been in this hobby I eventually learned how to get and keep fish immune. You may think it is luck and many people feel it is but that just means you either don't know how to get your fish immune or don't believe in it.
You mentioned Humblefish a few times, he is a friend of mine and although he advocates quarantining, he believes my fish and fish in many old timers tanks are immune. He just feels that quarantine is easier. We respect each others opinions and I also know you can run a tank by quarantining.
This is just another way and I feel it is a more natural way.
As I keep saying the gauge of success here is if your fish never get sick, constantly spawn and only die of old age. Anything else and we failed.
I feel, and I may be wrong, that immune fish with natural immunity eating natural foods with bacteria and parasites in them just as they do in the sea are healthier, spawn constantly and "never" get sick with any ailment except maybe pop eye or some non communicable thing.
We humans are also covered in parasites, but we also are immune to them.
I spent a year in the jungle in Viet Nam, I didn't come out for the entire year. I had to take an antimalarial pill every day because I had no immunity to it and The place is swarming in Mosquitoes. The Vietnamese people didn't have any pills and they looked mighty healthy to me but they grew up there and were immune except the malnourished ones with a compromised immune system.
I also advocate for Noobs to quarantine. New tanks are never healthy enough to get fish immune and Noobs don't have the experience to know how to feed correctly and recognize the subtle signs of a healthy fish in spawning condition which my fish are always in. Disease to me and a few others is a non issue and has been for decades. Most old timers know this.
WE also know that fish in natural tanks have no trouble eating, they don't hide and we need no appetite enhancers, Selcon or anything else because we can feed correctly foods that have everything in them that healthy fish need.
This blue devil is over his nest of eggs in that barnacle shell Circa 1972.
I learned by then how to control ich. This may be the first spawning of a salt water fish in a tank. I think Moe also spawned fish in that year or a year later.
I am not exactly a Noob.
Here are the eggs. They hatched but at the time there were no rotifers so I could not raise them.
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40B Knasty
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I am into the science part of it. That's why I KNOW how it is cured from a tank and the fish. Also what product aside of the only cure may give you the best chance to live with ich. Also how beefing up a slime coat for a fish is the best thing to do to make them more resilient not immune. I also know when to question any others opinions, ways, and motives. Also when probably 80% of the people in the "hobby" just want fish, corals, or inverts and not the science of it all.
It's like when I asked Paul about his feeding station idea. Then I asked about what temp, salinity, and light is best to hatch brine shrimp. Between all silly emoji faces and sarcastic answers of "Temperature does not matter. Just don't tell them what it is
"Well I questioned why is there a reason for the light?
So they can be attracted from one chamber to the other and for heat.
Well I have 4 brine shrimp hatcheries that show me it DOES make a huge difference with temp and you do not 100% need a light. Also getting clean almost 100% hatches in less than 14 hours. If I listened to his advice it would take a hatch anywhere between 24hrs-48hrs to get them to hatch and about an 80% hatch rate. Which was an unpredictable pain when it was time for them to hatch.
Again.. So what I am saying is I will believe the only 1 fact to cure it and tell the OP to only listen to the fact of what works for a cure and also if you choose "how you can live with ich." That floor is always open to what is best. At the end of the day. No matter how many times another person strongly believes in something about ich. If it is not the cure. Do your own take on it.
VitaChem & Selcom are great helpers. Let the frozen food thaw out in the vitamins. It will have a higher % absorbed of the product. When the ice crystals thaw it draws the moisture into the food. Just like if you ever have to use metroplex or kanaplex w/ Focus as the binder.
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Then you "experimented" to find a better way. I like that and I have been saying to experiment. I know shrimp hatch faster in slightly higher temperatures. Just look at Great Salt Lake where they come from. Or read the directions on the package. I hatch them in my workshop and only need them every 24 hours so that's what I get. But experimenting for your own needs is better.
Above you said you don't want to experiment, you just want to keep fish as a hobbyist. I knew you liked the science of it.
(yes, another silly emoji)I say many times never to listen to anyone, even me as I am not the God of fish or brine shrimp. Do your own experimenting.
I know how it is cured also as I was here when we figured out how to do that and didn't have to read it on the internet. But as I keep saying, I don't want to cure it. That is simple. Using it to make the fish better is better. No cure needed.
Have a great Sunday.
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Paul B
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There is actually another way that some of us Geezers know about but you won't find it in these forums, just like you won't find a lot of things on the internet because the people who developed these ways when the hobby started are for the most part gone.
Before we could get copper we used the heat method. Just remove the animals and raise the temperature of the tank to about 90 degrees and keep it like that for 24 hours. The ich will be dead. Now I may be a few degrees off on the temperature and duration so don't take those numbers as fact. I also gave away my old books where I learned that so I can't look it up but it was much better than keeping a tank fallow for 70 days and it did not kill the bacteria. I "think" it's in my book but I forgot.
I don't mention things like this on forums because of the controversy on this subject. But that is the way we did it before we used pennies. We could not get liquid copper in those days.
WE cured the fish in a separate tank in 10 days and put them back. You can cure ich in 24 hours using copper and quinicrine hydrochloride together. But that is another controversial method.
The internet is very new, but the salt water hobby has been in the US since 1971. It didn't start yesterday and some Geezers have no problems curing ich or keeping it from affecting our fish.
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I was aware of that method (I've been in the hobby since early 90s... not quite as long as you Paul, but long enough to remember the 'make it up as you go along' days... and reverse undergravel filters). It's actually one of the best and most effective ways of killing ich. We used to do 100 degrees as it gave a margin of error for the dodgy thermometers
Problem is, in those days we only had softies, or a few LPS, nems gorgs etc. Not a load of delicate SPS and stuff encrusted onto the tank walls and rockwork. It was easy to take everything out... that tends not to be the case any longer. I can even remember seeing what temp toadstool leathers could cope with to see if the temp method could be used in an invert only tank, they didn't much like it above about 87F! This would have been the late 90s after Colorni and Burgess's paper of 1997 (I think).
Ah, the irony of a disease made difficult to treat by the inclusion of things that can't even catch the darned disease!I remember that Gweeds.
In the 70s we had no corals so it was easy.
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