Something isnt right....need some help!

[Torqued]

Ok folks, first off I am a fairly experienced reefer. Ive been doing this for over 13 yrs and have had extremely successful sps tanks previously. However, this latest tank has given me problems like ive never had from day 1. Mostly due to algae, cyano or some combination. Currently all my corals are just ticked. None of them but the gorgs, gsp, toadstool look good. The zoos are awful too. All have either lost tissue or have poor extension, not opening. I have done all i can think of, including backed off lights by over half, increased feedings and have solid flow.

Nitrate - 3ppm
Po4 - .01 (hanna uln meter)
Ca - 450
Mg - 1350
Alk - 10 dkh
Iodide -.04

I also recently dosed some iodide because a previous triton test showed no iodine

Ive done numerous water changes, but they aren't helping.

Today i blew off the rocks, which appears to have either diatoms or cyano. Blowing off the rocks ticked everything off. Everything but the gorg immediately closed up tight. I suspect whatever i blew off the rocks is what has everything irritated. I dont think its cyano because i did also run chemiclean last week and it didnt touch it, so i suspect its diatoms. This is very odd for a 1.5 yr old tank if thats the case!

Water change water is 0 tds rodi, so silicates is highly unlikely.

Something to note....this tank is 3/4 Marco Rocks....but even the other rock all had to be dried out between moves (tank was down for a year).

Turning off the protein skimmer for 24 hrs or more also ticks everything off. Which supports the theory that something in the water column is irritating the corals.

I left for a week and turned the skimmer off, came home to everything super ticked and tissue recession.

I need some ideas...cause i am fresh out!

Here are some pics:

 

[Torqued]

Previous tank:

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

I would let that alk drop down to ~8-8.5

What do you have for lighting? What is the flow like in the tank? Any signs of pests on the corals? Anything nipping?

 

[JDnKY]

Stray voltage from a cracked heater or wire can irritate corals. Not sure what the best way to check this but I’m sure someone at #reefsquad could help.

 

[Flippers4pups]

How old is this tank?

 

[MnFish1]

Just a comment - if you're sure that the parameters are correct maybe you're doing too much and chasing your tail? Not meant as a criticism - but You dosed Iodide - did you recheck it to make sure that its not too high now? was there anything else that was on your triton test that was 'questionable'? Did you double check the ICP test with a home kit? Did anything die (i.e. more organics) - have you added anything new that may have added a 'pest'/virus/bacteria.

Sometimes my coral closes up when its done feeding (i.e. when I'm done blowing off the rock).

I agree that letting your alk drop a bit may be helpful. (ps are you sure that test is correct?)

 

[Torqued]

Most of these questions are in my original Post, but here goes:

- Tank is about 1.5 years old
- While 10 dkh is high for some standards, I feel elevated dkh has its benefits, and its pretty well documented by WWC, so I am confident that is NOT the issue.
- I do have a ton of asterna starfish, but no other visible pests that I have been able to identify. Ive looked REAL close for AEFW, and no signs of them
- Triton showed everything was pretty rock solid, here is the last test (this is dated so its not really valid now. I will post the new one when it arrives in a week or so) - https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/aquarium/auswertung-b/icp-oes/42490/
-I did test my iodine using a test kit from Seachem. Its basically right where it should be or below. It is def not overdosed.
-Stray voltage SHOULD kick off my GFCI. I do have a grounding probe in the tank for that purpose.
-Flow is solid. I have two CP40s and a 18000lph return pump of which about at least 9000lph is going to the tank. The rest is lost to head pressure and things running off of the manifold like my RollerMat, Carbon Reactor, and CaRx.
- Alk is tested using Hanna Alk Meter. Ive also tested via normal redsea test kit (which is very innacurate) and its reasonably close, so i think my Hanna is working fine.
- All other levels are being tested with Salifert kits (Mag, Ca)

More Info:
- I was running Red Sea Blue Bucket for last 1.5 years.
- I have JUST now switched back to bread and butter IO. Part of the reason is I run about 10dkh anyway, so all I have to do is add a tad of Cal and i am in business. Regardless of how you may feel about IO, that is def not the cause, since its being used in MANY nice tanks, and my tank was going south prior to using it. I am only 2 WCs in with the IO over the past week. (2x 15% each)

I just did another water change, and this time I vacuumed the sand bed (ive never done this before). The water coming out was REAL dirty.....so hopefully that has some positive effect.

 

[MabuyaQ]

Most of these questions are in my original Post, but here goes:

- Tank is about 1.5 years old
- While 10 dkh is high for some standards, I feel elevated dkh has its benefits, and its pretty well documented by WWC, so I am confident that is NOT the issue.
- I do have a ton of asterna starfish, but no other visible pests that I have been able to identify. Ive looked REAL close for AEFW, and no signs of them
- Triton showed everything was pretty rock solid, here is the last test (this is dated so its not really valid now. I will post the new one when it arrives in a week or so) - https://www.triton-lab.de/en/showroom/aquarium/auswertung-b/icp-oes/42490/
-I did test my iodine using a test kit from Seachem. Its basically right where it should be or below. It is def not overdosed.
-Stray voltage SHOULD kick off my GFCI. I do have a grounding probe in the tank for that purpose.
-Flow is solid. I have two CP40s and a 18000lph return pump of which about at least 9000lph is going to the tank. The rest is lost to head pressure and things running off of the manifold like my RollerMat, Carbon Reactor, and CaRx.
- Alk is tested using Hanna Alk Meter. Ive also tested via normal redsea test kit (which is very innacurate) and its reasonably close, so i think my Hanna is working fine.
- All other levels are being tested with Salifert kits (Mag, Ca)

More Info:
- I was running Red Sea Blue Bucket for last 1.5 years.
- I have JUST now switched back to bread and butter IO. Part of the reason is I run about 10dkh anyway, so all I have to do is add a tad of Cal and i am in business. Regardless of how you may feel about IO, that is def not the cause, since its being used in MANY nice tanks, and my tank was going south prior to using it. I am only 2 WCs in with the IO over the past week. (2x 15% each)

I just did another water change, and this time I vacuumed the sand bed (ive never done this before). The water coming out was REAL dirty.....so hopefully that has some positive effect.

I disagree on KH not being a problem in this case. For it not being potentially problematic you either need somewhat elevated nutrients (not the case with PO4 of 0.01 and NO3 of 3 especially when taking measurement accuracy in account) or high overall daily consumption (also not the case). Looking at the overal state it looks like you have starved your bacteria for to long so they no longer could outcompete the diatoms and cyano (if they actually ever established themselves given that you started with dead rock). The only way to reboot those is by running higher nitrate and phosphate levels (and dosing vinegar and bacteria may be needed as well if you want to speed this up).

I would never run, and never have run in the 22 years I have been reefing myself, a reef started with live rock with PO4 under 0.05-0.03 with NO3 under 5 the first year because it takes that long for the bacterial population to truly establish and stabilize and it takes at least that long when starting with dead rock.

 

[Tuan’s Reef]

any chance if old magnets rusting somewhere?

 

[Torqued]

any chance if old magnets rusting somewhere?

Nothing is old....but its possible. I will reinspect. The only magnets i have are on my probe holder and the mags holding the cp40s to the tank

 

[Torqued]

I disagree on KH not being a problem in this case. For it not being potentially problematic you either need somewhat elevated nutrients (not the case with PO4 of 0.01 and NO3 of 3 especially when taking measurement accuracy in account) or high overall daily consumption (also not the case). Looking at the overal state it looks like you have starved your bacteria for to long so they no longer could outcompete the diatoms and cyano (if they actually ever established themselves given that you started with dead rock). The only way to reboot those is by running higher nitrate and phosphate levels (and dosing vinegar and bacteria may be needed as well if you want to speed this up).

I would never run, and never have run in the 22 years I have been reefing myself, a reef started with live rock with PO4 under 0.05-0.03 with NO3 under 5 the first year because it takes that long for the bacterial population to truly establish and stabilize and it takes at least that long when starting with dead rock.

The no3 has been hard to keep up at all, but p04, while low has still resulted in a great deal of tank algae. I have been fighting gha and cyano since day one......so ive had to run a gfo to compete. I THINK my main issue is my corals are/were 3rd in line behind the gfo and algae. Ive tried compensating with more food to no avail. The only way i can keep the no3 above 0 is to dose it. That is why i tried shutting down the skimmer. However that seems to tick off the corals even more. I could dose vinegar, but i think i would need to really kick up feeding to compensate.

 

[Torqued]

Any other thoughts?

Im thinking that carbon dosing would only drive nutrients down even more. Im wondering if instead trying some microbacter7 or some other bacteria. Also ratchet up the feeding and manually scrub any algae off.

Sorry missed the lights question. I have 6x Cree 70w Lumia 5.2 LEDs from ledgroupbuy. The blues are now at 50% for 9 hrs and whites 20% for 4 hrs. I had them cranked for a while, which i THINK greatly contributed to the bleaching. They have been cranked down for 2 weeks, tissue loss has continued, or even accelerated.

 

[MnFish1]

Any other thoughts?

Im thinking that carbon dosing would only drive nutrients down even more. Im wondering if instead trying some microbacter7 or some other bacteria. Also ratchet up the feeding and manually scrub any algae off.

Sorry missed the lights question. I have 6x Cree 70w Lumia 5.2 LEDs from ledgroupbuy. The blues are now at 50% for 9 hrs and whites 20% for 4 hrs. I had them cranked for a while, which i THINK greatly contributed to the bleaching. They have been cranked down for 2 weeks, tissue loss has continued, or even accelerated.

Even though Instant Ocean may be fine - sometimes changes are not. Have you double checked your measures? A rusty magnet problem would have been seen in the ICP testing wouldn't it?

PS- you're right some of the questions have been answeredinteh OP-but you missed some of mine. Additionally do you run any carbon - I have seen something like this when coral 'die or are injured' they release various toxins.

"You dosed Iodide - did you recheck it to make sure that its not too high now? was there anything else that was on your triton test that was 'questionable'? Did you double check the ICP test with a home kit? Did anything die (i.e. more organics) - have you added anything new that may have added a 'pest'/virus/bacteria?"

 

[MrObscura]

WWC Targets 8.6dkh in all their tanks.

10 is pretty high and with you rather low nutrient levels could be problematic.

 

[Torqued]

Even though Instant Ocean may be fine - sometimes changes are not. Have you double checked your measures? A rusty magnet problem would have been seen in the ICP testing wouldn't it?

PS- you're right some of the questions have been answeredinteh OP-but you missed some of mine. Additionally do you run any carbon - I have seen something like this when coral 'die or are injured' they release various toxins.

"You dosed Iodide - did you recheck it to make sure that its not too high now? was there anything else that was on your triton test that was 'questionable'? Did you double check the ICP test with a home kit? Did anything die (i.e. more organics) - have you added anything new that may have added a 'pest'/virus/bacteria?"

Ive looked all over for a rusty mag...nothing found yet. I haven't removed the main pump in a very long time....i am going to do that and inspect it.

Yes ive tested iodide since dosing and its testing at the recommended level of .04 to .06.

I have added new stuff yes. So a bacteria or fungus infection of some kind is possible. At this point i think it could be that because everything else i can think of seems normal. I DO think i stressed the corals with the light, but that was done to address issues i was observing. I think adding more light only made the existing problem worse. So now they are really stressed to hell and whatever was the original stressor is still there.

 

[MnFish1]

Ive looked all over for a rusty mag...nothing found yet. I haven't removed the main pump in a very long time....i am going to do that and inspect it.

Yes ive tested iodide since dosing and its testing at the recommended level of .04 to .06.

I have added new stuff yes. So a bacteria or fungus infection of some kind is possible. At this point i think it could be that because everything else i can think of seems normal. I DO think i stressed the corals with the light, but that was done to address issues i was observing. I think adding more light only made the existing problem worse. So now they are really stressed to hell and whatever was the original stressor is still there.

Thanks - it is frustrating. I know you ran chemipure for a bit - - but if things are still sick/dying - there could be some chemical warfare going on?

 

[Torqued]

Thanks - it is frustrating. I know you ran chemipure for a bit - - but if things are still sick/dying - there could be some chemical warfare going on?

No Chemipure, but chemiclean, which is for Cyano.

I am hoping my ICP test comes back before everything is dead and there is SOMETHING to correct.....

I am not sure which is more frustrating, having a good ICP test with coral stress or a bad ICP test. My problem is I just dont know what to fix.

 

[MnFish1]

No Chemipure, but chemiclean, which is for Cyano.

I am hoping my ICP test comes back before everything is dead and there is SOMETHING to correct.....

I am not sure which is more frustrating, having a good ICP test with coral stress or a bad ICP test. My problem is I just dont know what to fix.

CARBON....BTW-not carbon dosing -but good old fashioned carbon...JMHO. Sorry I misunderstood when you said'i did run chemiclean'-I thought you meant the carbon containing product'chemipure'.

 

[dean.reef]

are your sure it’s not dino’s??if it is that’s your problem there!

 

[Scorpius]

With those nutrient levels let your alk fall to 7- 7.5 dkh. You'll thank me later.