Spectrometer and confusing capitalism..

[oreo54]

Check out the 2 meters..
https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/parwise-par-monitor-for-saltwater-itc-reefculture/and
https://www.aquacave.com/seneye-spectra.html

The new PARwise appears to share some DNA with the Seneye from ITC Reefculture’s parent company

https://reefbuilders.com/2022/05/25/parwise-is-a-new-light-sensor-from-itc-reefculture/https://www.coralvue.com/blog/macna-milwaukee-2022-product-spotlight---itc-reefculture-parwise

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

Check out the 2 meters..
https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/parwise-par-monitor-for-saltwater-itc-reefculture/and
https://www.aquacave.com/seneye-spectra.html



https://reefbuilders.com/2022/05/25/parwise-is-a-new-light-sensor-from-itc-reefculture/https://www.coralvue.com/blog/macna-milwaukee-2022-product-spotlight---itc-reefculture-parwise

What are you saying?

 

[dedragon]

What are you saying?

I think oreo is trying to say these might be the exact same meters, just being sold at wildly different prices. They do look identical (with different branding) but the seneye one is $1100 and the itc is $300

 

[oreo54]

What are you saying?

It was a bit tongue and cheek.. Want to buy the same thing for $1100 or $300 dollars?
Your choice.

ITC reefculture, a subsidiary brand of Sensye...

I reserve the right to be proven wrong though.. :)

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

It was a bit tongue and cheek.. Want to buy the same thing for $1100 or $300 dollars..
Your choice.

We'll, I don't disagree, but they are "different". Albeit slightly, but here are the differences I know of.

1) Seneye - PUR and PAR meter. Also has ammonia sensor, etc.
2) PARwise - Spectrum, PAR, LUX, DLI, CCT and shows peak nm.
3) Spectra - This is supposed to be a full range spectrometer. It measure PUR, which the PARwise doesn't which is ridiculous if you ask me. I don't know all the offerings of this one.

All three are the same company. All three seem to be marketed toward a specific group of people who are looking for a variety of the things. Yes, it's a marketing strategy, but each offers different options.

I own the PARwise and I'm on the fence on whether I like it or I don't. The spectrum readings are interesting, but they only show a curve. It's kind of strange. The PAR is much lower than my Apogee Mq-510. I was told by ITC that the Apogee measures UV as PAR and the PARwise does not.

I've adjusted my lighting based on the PARwise for now and will closely monitor my Acropora over the next few weeks. I've been wanting to add LEDs to my Metal Halides, so now seemed like a good time.

In the end, I don't disagree. It's 3 different products when they could have offered all of the options in one product.

 

[oreo54]

Well if you go by the marketing the ITC measures from 380-800nm
The seneye ..400-700nm

See Every Single Nanometer of Light from 400nm-730nm

PUR is species dependent with a lot of assumptions.
Better would be the ability to average ranges like 410-470 % ect

I doubt if either is as " exact" as some name brand spectrometers but, honestly, that precision is generally unnecessary.

I'd be interested in what sensors they use though.

 

[ITCreefculture]

Check out the 2 meters..
https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/parwise-par-monitor-for-saltwater-itc-reefculture/and
https://www.aquacave.com/seneye-spectra.html



https://reefbuilders.com/2022/05/25/parwise-is-a-new-light-sensor-from-itc-reefculture/https://www.coralvue.com/blog/macna-milwaukee-2022-product-spotlight---itc-reefculture-parwise

Hey Oreo!

We don't post on here much - we (Seneye!) are a tiny team but will try to check in!


In very short! ITC Reefculture is a brand of Seneye.

Seneye products rely on photometry - colour sensing. This is what we do and how we measure many of our water parameters.

ITC Reefculture is our brand for all of our products that aren't dedicated to protecting fish (That's what seneye is for!)

Seneye Reef - is a water quality sensor that can also see light and give basic light measurements. We're on our 6th Generation now since it's launch around 2010!

Seneye Spectra named and released a couple of years before our ITC Brand was launched is a full underwater spectrometer with single nm precision from 400-700nm. t's P.C software driven and can tell you very accurately how much light is in each nanometer between 400-700 underwater! We developed this sensor tech to make the best possible light meter giving lab quality data under water and also in order to enhance our ability to 'see colour' ready for our next generation products. With Spectra you can export all the data etc.

PARwise - is our most recent and latest user friendly light meter which - can be used on most devices (pretty much just not iOS or iPadOS) without any install. We define it as a LIGHT METER, with spectrum! We don't call it a spectrometer because it doesn't provide the fine resolution one might expect from a lab based spectrometer, like the Seneye Spectra. It also has the benefit of being significantly lower cost meaning we can get accurate lighting tools into the hands of reefers so we can all discuss all of the parameters involved in lighting - for success such as PAR, Spectrum and DLI. Whilst not a lab grade instrument, It is however, super useful and plenty accurate enough for our hobby use. Because it can measure spectrum - we can ignore parts of the spectrum that aren't within the technical definition of PAR - This is a big plus for accuracy. Other light meters can significantly over read if there is light under 400nm - which halides, T5's, Natural light and some modern LED fixtures provide.

We do plan on doing some serious PARwise software updates in the future - bringing in new features as people suggest them! We already have a hefty dev list!

The only things PARwise shares with Spectra is the outer body casings and the cable! The circuitry and or optical sensors are completely different - as is the price point!

Hope this helps explain our product range!

If any one wants to fire up discussion please join the official PARwise owners group on Facebook! We're in there a lot more often than here :). I will keep trying to keep tabs though If I can help.

Kindest regards
Craig

ITC Reefculture / Seneye

 

[oreo54]

Thanks...

 

[ConsummatePro]

@ITCreefculture thanks for popping in. I’m very interested in PARWise - the software and spectrum insights look amazing, and an advantage over plain PAR meters.

Have you considered (also) releasing software that we can also download locally as an executable file for Windows, Mac (and hopefully in the future iOS)? While I see you currently offer the “installation free” web app - if I understand it correctly, this still requires an active internet connection and a working server on your end.

This definitely is an easy way for users to get going but there will be issues if a user doesn’t have internet access, or if your servers are down, or (as often happens in tech) when the company moves into a newer version and sunset the old device (or God forbid, goes out of business) then users with a cloud dependent device are left with bricks. I like the option of having locally run software to hedge against all these. Even a parallel web app and local executable release would solve this concern. HecknIm ok even if the local software lags the web app feature set just to have the backup.

With stand alone devices like Apogee units users never have to worry about these issues.

My apologies if I totally misunderstood how the app runs. Maybe all the above is moot if so.

 

[ITCreefculture]

@ITCreefculture thanks for popping in. I’m very interested in PARWise - the software and spectrum insights look amazing, and an advantage over plain PAR meters.

Have you considered (also) releasing software that we can also download locally as an executable file for Windows, Mac (and hopefully in the future iOS)? While I see you currently offer the “installation free” web app - if I understand it correctly, this still requires an active internet connection and a working server on your end.

This definitely is an easy way for users to get going but there will be issues if a user doesn’t have internet access, or if your servers are down, or (as often happens in tech) when the company moves into a newer version and sunset the old device (or God forbid, goes out of business) then users with a cloud dependent device are left with bricks. I like the option of having locally run software to hedge against all these. Even a parallel web app and local executable release would solve this concern. HecknIm ok even if the local software lags the web app feature set just to have the backup.

With stand alone devices like Apogee units users never have to worry about these issues.

My apologies if I totally misunderstood how the app runs. Maybe all the above is moot if so.

Hi there!

The good news here is you need internet once, the web app installs in your browser for offline use. It will check version each time you have internet and ask to update if there is a new one but other than that.. ready to go! :)

All the best
Craig

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

Hey Oreo!

We don't post on here much - we (Seneye!) are a tiny team but will try to check in!


In very short! ITC Reefculture is a brand of Seneye.

Seneye products rely on photometry - colour sensing. This is what we do and how we measure many of our water parameters.

ITC Reefculture is our brand for all of our products that aren't dedicated to protecting fish (That's what seneye is for!)

Seneye Reef - is a water quality sensor that can also see light and give basic light measurements. We're on our 6th Generation now since it's launch around 2010!

Seneye Spectra named and released a couple of years before our ITC Brand was launched is a full underwater spectrometer with single nm precision from 400-700nm. t's P.C software driven and can tell you very accurately how much light is in each nanometer between 400-700 underwater! We developed this sensor tech to make the best possible light meter giving lab quality data under water and also in order to enhance our ability to 'see colour' ready for our next generation products. With Spectra you can export all the data etc.

PARwise - is our most recent and latest user friendly light meter which - can be used on most devices (pretty much just not iOS or iPadOS) without any install. We define it as a LIGHT METER, with spectrum! We don't call it a spectrometer because it doesn't provide the fine resolution one might expect from a lab based spectrometer, like the Seneye Spectra. It also has the benefit of being significantly lower cost meaning we can get accurate lighting tools into the hands of reefers so we can all discuss all of the parameters involved in lighting - for success such as PAR, Spectrum and DLI. Whilst not a lab grade instrument, It is however, super useful and plenty accurate enough for our hobby use. Because it can measure spectrum - we can ignore parts of the spectrum that aren't within the technical definition of PAR - This is a big plus for accuracy. Other light meters can significantly over read if there is light under 400nm - which halides, T5's, Natural light and some modern LED fixtures provide.

We do plan on doing some serious PARwise software updates in the future - bringing in new features as people suggest them! We already have a hefty dev list!

The only things PARwise shares with Spectra is the outer body casings and the cable! The circuitry and or optical sensors are completely different - as is the price point!

Hope this helps explain our product range!

If any one wants to fire up discussion please join the official PARwise owners group on Facebook! We're in there a lot more often than here :). I will keep trying to keep tabs though If I can help.

Kindest regards
Craig

ITC Reefculture / Seneye

Hi there!

The good news here is you need internet once, the web app installs in your browser for offline use. It will check version each time you have internet and ask to update if there is a new one but other than that.. ready to go! :)

All the best
Craig

The web app works very well and is quick.

 

[ITCreefculture]

Thanks @Hurricane Aquatics !

We are planning on doing a new software edition in the near future - if the hobby decides on what it wants as a 'standard' for PUR comparisons like the BRS Biology band idea - we can incorporate this into the software to essentially ignore all of the light that doesn't fall within the "Biology Band" to give us a "Biology Band PFD" - Essentially a PUR reading for that range. We already plan to add various response curves for PUR comparisons. We could even go as far as adding specific user's spectra to create a response curve so people can more accurately reflect their light colour settings. You then use the PUR reading to match the intensity and fit - all done underwater of course - how it should be done.

 

[ScottD]

Thanks @Hurricane Aquatics !

We are planning on doing a new software edition in the near future - if the hobby decides on what it wants as a 'standard' for PUR comparisons like the BRS Biology band idea - we can incorporate this into the software to essentially ignore all of the light that doesn't fall within the "Biology Band" to give us a "Biology Band PFD" - Essentially a PUR reading for that range. We already plan to add various response curves for PUR comparisons. We could even go as far as adding specific user's spectra to create a response curve so people can more accurately reflect their light colour settings. You then use the PUR reading to match the intensity and fit - all done underwater of course - how it should be done.

That’s a great idea. In the mean time while a consensus is waiting to be reached could you take the brs biology band range for now as a default and add settings to allow the user to adjust the range if they would like to?

 

[Hooz]

Or maybe just highlight the biology band with some lines on the graph, but not completely ignore the rest of the spectrum. While I appreciate the work that BRS is doing on the lighting front, there is evidence that shows that the lower violets and near UV (down to 397nm) are useful for coral (SPS in particular), and some carotenoids benefit from light higher than the arbitrary 484nm they chose as the upper range.

Or have a toggle to show total PAR/PUR (within the range of the meter), and then total PAR/PUR within a user defined range. So if I was concerned with the 400-490nm range, I could set those as my limits and get the appropriate PAR/PUR values for my tank.

 

[ScottD]

Or maybe just highlight the biology band with some lines on the graph, but not completely ignore the rest of the spectrum. While I appreciate the work that BRS is doing on the lighting front, there is evidence that shows that the lower violets and near UV (down to 397nm) are useful for coral (SPS in particular), and some carotenoids benefit from light higher than the arbitrary 484nm they chose as the upper range.

Or have a toggle to show total PAR/PUR (within the range of the meter), and then total PAR/PUR within a user defined range. So if I was concerned with the 400-490nm range, I could set those as my limits and get the appropriate PAR/PUR values for my tank.

That’s why I suggested having the ability to change the range ourselves so thoses who didn’t agree with the biology band could change it to what they believe is true. If we wait for a consensus of what the range should be then we’ll be waiting a long time, if not forever. I also think there isn’t going to be a one size fits all as different types of coral are going to have different ranges. I do believe that BRS’s biology band is at least a good starting point for most people and people who want to take it further could can.

 

[ITCreefculture]

All good points guys! We’ve got some heavy new product development on the go at the moment and limited resources so changes won’t be immediate but these kind of discussions are perfect so we can make new additions that the community want.

So thanks!!

 

[ConsummatePro]

@ITCreefculture Can you tell us if the PARWise is very directional in the PAR readings? I know my Seneye PAR meter needs to be tilted towards the light to get a proper reading, whereas the Apogees have a lens diffuser and cosine correction to deal with light directionality.

Does PARWise have the same directional issue as Seneye, and is there a "best practices" for measuring light when not directly under the source?

 

[ITCreefculture]

@ITCreefculture Can you tell us if the PARWise is very directional in the PAR readings? I know my Seneye PAR meter needs to be tilted towards the light to get a proper reading, whereas the Apogees have a lens diffuser and cosine correction to deal with light directionality.

Does PARWise have the same directional issue as Seneye, and is there a "best practices" for measuring light when not directly under the source?

Hi Consummate pro -

With Seneye - It doesn't have a cosine corrector - A tech that is useful for when the sensor is fixed and the light source is moving - E.G the sun... thats what the Apogees were originally designed for. For the original Seneye Reef's basic light meter.. its always going to be used in an aquarium with a single fixed position light. So it never had one.

PARwise does have one because it can be used in air for terrestrial measurements - and therefore it can accept light at differencing angles should the light source move. However in the interest of accuracy and proper application and standardisation for comparison - we should always be facing ANY light sensor in the direction of light.

Also - whilst we haven't done a video on it yet.. our cosine corrector is user replaceable should it get damaged or dirty. Which is pretty cool!

Hope that helps!

 

[areefer01]

Thanks @Hurricane Aquatics !

We are planning on doing a new software edition in the near future - if the hobby decides on what it wants as a 'standard' for PUR comparisons like the BRS Biology band idea - we can incorporate this into the software to essentially ignore all of the light that doesn't fall within the "Biology Band" to give us a "Biology Band PFD" - Essentially a PUR reading for that range. We already plan to add various response curves for PUR comparisons. We could even go as far as adding specific user's spectra to create a response curve so people can more accurately reflect their light colour settings. You then use the PUR reading to match the intensity and fit - all done underwater of course - how it should be done.

BRS Biology band - is anyone vetting or are there papers on this?

 

[ITCreefculture]

BRS Biology band - is anyone vetting or are there papers on this?

We will review any scientific literature before we use it and also in consultation with recommendation from our friends, such as the team at the Horniman Museum in London.