Dowtish
5000 Club Member
So far you sound like you are doing everything right. Did you have undetectable phosphates when you started running the pellets? And what test kit are you using?
SPS and Biopellets
- Thread starter Vmacisback
- Start date
- Tagged users None
So far you sound like you are doing everything right. Did you have undetectable phosphates when you started running the pellets? And what test kit are you using?
creefer
Valuable Member
Yes, I did. I am using salifert kits and I think that I got undetectable results because my chaeto was growing like crazy consuming all detectable phosphates and nitrates. Like I said, I used maybe 25% of the recommended volume of pellets in my TLF 150 reactor. I did slow the flow a bit in hopes of helping combat the little cyano I got. Also picked up some Special Blend at lunch today so I have it in the event I need it.
Dowtish
5000 Club Member
I have run EcoBak for almost 2 years and I feed very heavy to my fish, and have zero nitrates(salifert) and 0.03 phos(hanna) but I still have to scrape my glass every 3 days fwiw.
I would run the pellets you have for another 2 weeks to allow them to fully colonize, and then add another 1/4 amount of the recommended amount. The more media you add the better they seem to tumble, even at a slow rate.
I would run the pellets you have for another 2 weeks to allow them to fully colonize, and then add another 1/4 amount of the recommended amount. The more media you add the better they seem to tumble, even at a slow rate.
creefer
Valuable Member
Thanks, Chris. I assumed I would have to still clean the glass every few days. It's the dusting of crap on the sand bed that I find most annoying. In any case, I plan to do as you suggest. I wanted this process to go slowly because of all the horror stories I've read about it. I think that's the result of people just jumping all over the craze and not taking it slow.
Dowtish
5000 Club Member
That is exactly what has happened IMO. People are not willing to do the right amount of research to actually understand what the pellets do and are capable of. Although I can understand wanting to get rid of algae and getting parameters down to where they should be, but we all know nothing good happens fast in this hobby.
Jon Warner
Well-Known Member
Just to clarify a few things
1) When people talk about "bio-pellets" please name the brand because NOT ALL these solid polymer pellet products are the same.
2) NO3 is produced constantly in an aquarium, every minute of every day. So the bacteria that consume PO4 are working 24/7.
3) PO4 in general, is ADDED to an aquarium via top-off water, food and as an impurity.
4) "Bio-Pellets" don't REMOVE PO4. PO4 is removed when your skimmer removes bacterial bio-mass from the water column that is produced by the solid polymer pellets.
5) In rare instances, if NO3 or PO4 hits near ZERO the bacterial action can slow down until more NO3 or PO4 is available. SO this is why we discourage use of GFO, otherwise NO3 may not be reduced. But if PO4 is still high after NO3 hits zero, just run a little bit of GFO temporarily.
If you're having problems with PO4 accumulating while NO3 drops, you need to look at your export system closely.
GFO removes PO4 by bonding with it and then you remove the GFO and dispose of it. When you harvest macroalgae you're removing PO4 from your system. The bacteria that consume solid polymer form little clumps of bio-mass that are sheared off of the surface of the solid polymer pellet. This bio-mass enters the water stream and immediately picks up additional bacteria in the water stream, possibly some proteins and carbonate particles and is a) skimmed out or b) settled out.
If your bio-mass settles out instead of being skimmed the PO4 is NOT removed from the water stream and will be a localized source of organics where it settles out. Settled out organics can lead to Cyano outbreaks.
So the KEY TO SOLID POLYMER use is to focus on EXPORT
I kept this in mind while formulating ecoBAK and while writing the Patent application. The solid polymer should have specific properties that facilitate the export.
So, bottom line...
1) Don't excessively agitate/tumble your solid polymer pellets.
2) Maintain high flow rates IN THE SYSTEM (not the bio-reactor) to prevent organics from "settling out" in your system
3) Use a properly sized/rated/high quality protein skimmer.
4) Consider plumbing your reactor output into your skimmer intake or at least into the skimmer compartment.
5) When starting out, use a partial dose of solid polymer pellets and add more every 1-2 weeks.
In summation, the bacteria is working. If your PO4 doesn't make it into your collection cup you have work to do. Speaking of ecoBAK (I can't speak for the others) I can say it really is that easy. And no you don't have to be a chemist to use it in an aquarium. As long as people understand the basic principles behind its function it's an "auto-pilot" method of aquarium filtration suitable for ALL marine fish and reef aquariums.
1) When people talk about "bio-pellets" please name the brand because NOT ALL these solid polymer pellet products are the same.
2) NO3 is produced constantly in an aquarium, every minute of every day. So the bacteria that consume PO4 are working 24/7.
3) PO4 in general, is ADDED to an aquarium via top-off water, food and as an impurity.
4) "Bio-Pellets" don't REMOVE PO4. PO4 is removed when your skimmer removes bacterial bio-mass from the water column that is produced by the solid polymer pellets.
5) In rare instances, if NO3 or PO4 hits near ZERO the bacterial action can slow down until more NO3 or PO4 is available. SO this is why we discourage use of GFO, otherwise NO3 may not be reduced. But if PO4 is still high after NO3 hits zero, just run a little bit of GFO temporarily.
If you're having problems with PO4 accumulating while NO3 drops, you need to look at your export system closely.
GFO removes PO4 by bonding with it and then you remove the GFO and dispose of it. When you harvest macroalgae you're removing PO4 from your system. The bacteria that consume solid polymer form little clumps of bio-mass that are sheared off of the surface of the solid polymer pellet. This bio-mass enters the water stream and immediately picks up additional bacteria in the water stream, possibly some proteins and carbonate particles and is a) skimmed out or b) settled out.
If your bio-mass settles out instead of being skimmed the PO4 is NOT removed from the water stream and will be a localized source of organics where it settles out. Settled out organics can lead to Cyano outbreaks.
So the KEY TO SOLID POLYMER use is to focus on EXPORT
I kept this in mind while formulating ecoBAK and while writing the Patent application. The solid polymer should have specific properties that facilitate the export.
So, bottom line...
1) Don't excessively agitate/tumble your solid polymer pellets.
2) Maintain high flow rates IN THE SYSTEM (not the bio-reactor) to prevent organics from "settling out" in your system
3) Use a properly sized/rated/high quality protein skimmer.
4) Consider plumbing your reactor output into your skimmer intake or at least into the skimmer compartment.
5) When starting out, use a partial dose of solid polymer pellets and add more every 1-2 weeks.
In summation, the bacteria is working. If your PO4 doesn't make it into your collection cup you have work to do. Speaking of ecoBAK (I can't speak for the others) I can say it really is that easy. And no you don't have to be a chemist to use it in an aquarium. As long as people understand the basic principles behind its function it's an "auto-pilot" method of aquarium filtration suitable for ALL marine fish and reef aquariums.
Last edited:
Jon Warner
Well-Known Member
In addition,
Liquid Carbon dosing is an inferior alternative to solid Carbon use.
1) When you add liquid Carbon to a system the Carbon source goes into solution and proceeds to feed every organism contacting the water stream including algae on your rocks and substrate. Solid Carbon use ADDS NOTHING to the water (unless you break the rule above about excess tumble)
2) Liquid Carbon dosing causes a temporary condition in the system where there is an excess of organic C which causes a small bacterial bloom which dies off or hopefully is exported. If you could look at a graph of bacterial activity with Liquid Carbon dosing you would see a spike and dip after every application. Solid Carbon use produces a flat line on the graph. Solid Carbon is only consumed as bacterial activity dictates. If you have very few nutrients in your system you will have very little Solid Carbon consumed and with high nutrients available, the Solid Carbon will be consumed more rapidly. So Solid Carbon automatically supports bacterial activity depending on nutrients available. This in itself is a marked contrast to Liquid Carbon dosing.
One last thing, on Saturday November 3rd I'm speaking at the 2012 NJ Reefers "Frag Swap" in Edison, NJ. We're expecting up to 2000 attendees and ecoBAK will be the topic of discussion. So if you're in the area and want to stop by, come on down.
Liquid Carbon dosing is an inferior alternative to solid Carbon use.
1) When you add liquid Carbon to a system the Carbon source goes into solution and proceeds to feed every organism contacting the water stream including algae on your rocks and substrate. Solid Carbon use ADDS NOTHING to the water (unless you break the rule above about excess tumble)
2) Liquid Carbon dosing causes a temporary condition in the system where there is an excess of organic C which causes a small bacterial bloom which dies off or hopefully is exported. If you could look at a graph of bacterial activity with Liquid Carbon dosing you would see a spike and dip after every application. Solid Carbon use produces a flat line on the graph. Solid Carbon is only consumed as bacterial activity dictates. If you have very few nutrients in your system you will have very little Solid Carbon consumed and with high nutrients available, the Solid Carbon will be consumed more rapidly. So Solid Carbon automatically supports bacterial activity depending on nutrients available. This in itself is a marked contrast to Liquid Carbon dosing.
One last thing, on Saturday November 3rd I'm speaking at the 2012 NJ Reefers "Frag Swap" in Edison, NJ. We're expecting up to 2000 attendees and ecoBAK will be the topic of discussion. So if you're in the area and want to stop by, come on down.
Last edited:
Troylee
all about the diy!!!!!
Ultimate Member
Reef Squad
Excellence Award
R2R App User
Moderator Emeritus
Hospitality Award
ThreadAward
My Tank Thread
My Aquarium Showcase
Listen to that man!!^^^^^ that's the most detailed explanation I have ever read on pellets..
Jon Warner
Well-Known Member
thank you! That's very kind.
Jon Warner
Well-Known Member
We're working on Canadian distribution now, if you're unable to source it contact me directly and I will make sure you can get it.
azjohnny
Active Member
there is a reationship between phosphates and nitrates, biopellets consume more nitrates to phosphates at about a 16/1 ratio and once the nitrate level gets eliminated the bacteria start to die off, since they are not needed and thats when the phosphate level will rise. To combat this you can dose phosphates to keep the bacteria colony up.
Corals do need a certain amount of nitrates and phosphates to survive, IMO good levels are
Nitrate -5
Phospahates-<.02
when your levels get too low or the levels drop to fast that is when the corals crash,
IMO the best reactors are recirculation types, with them you can control the tumbling and the effluent seperatly. You can make one out of a calcium reactor there are videos on youtube for a DIY
If your nitrates drop too low you can decrease the effluent ( this is the gas pedal)
Corals do need a certain amount of nitrates and phosphates to survive, IMO good levels are
Nitrate -5
Phospahates-<.02
when your levels get too low or the levels drop to fast that is when the corals crash,
IMO the best reactors are recirculation types, with them you can control the tumbling and the effluent seperatly. You can make one out of a calcium reactor there are videos on youtube for a DIY
If your nitrates drop too low you can decrease the effluent ( this is the gas pedal)
creefer
Valuable Member
@Dowtish...you are so right....
@Jon....I agree with most of your statements, which is why I'm running just a bit of GFO with the pellets I'm using. I will be moving to your product soon, actually. Right now I'm using NPX pellets. I have been following your thread and have decided that I'm going to try EcoBak. I just have not ordered it yet.
Your explanation of how this all works is fantastic.
Thank you.
@Jon....I agree with most of your statements, which is why I'm running just a bit of GFO with the pellets I'm using. I will be moving to your product soon, actually. Right now I'm using NPX pellets. I have been following your thread and have decided that I'm going to try EcoBak. I just have not ordered it yet.
Your explanation of how this all works is fantastic.
Thank you.
Last edited:
Toomnymods
Active Member
Why does everyone stop using biopellets? Does the biopellets stop removing phosphate or something?
WesF
Well-Known Member
I stopped using ecobak because i was unable to keep phosphate down without using GFO. Since I never had a. Issue with nitrates and ecobak did not eliminate the need for GFO, I discontinued the pellets. I gave it about a tear before I finally gave up on waiting for it to start working.
Jon Warner
Well-Known Member
The bacteria don't "die off". The populations will self-regulate their size and density depending on nutrient level in the water. Again, it's all about the export. Phosphate reduction is about EXPORT. Nitrate levels are NEVER eliminated. NO3 is created every minute of every day in your system. It usually takes 4-6 weeks to see levels drop so I tend not to worry about levels dropping too quickly. And TIP #1... FEED YOUR TANK!
One more time it's about EXPORT and incoming PO4. I'd take a look at RO/DI filters, Salt, additives, food as a source of PO4. And make sure you're exporting efficiently... with a great skimmer.
OP
OP
Vmacisback
Vern McCalla
Thanks Jon, I started this thread but never really got an answer to my question but dont need one for the fact that I am going to continue to run pellets. I do have a question though about the use of GFO and pellets at the same time. I have had a couple bad experiences so far when introducing small amount of GFO to my tank. I have an sps dom. system and it seems to strip color from the sps when i introduce even a cup of GFO to a 260G system. Any thoughts? What will help to get some of the original color back in my corals? Seems like when they do start to color back up they dont hold the same color as when i bought them and look very pastel and pale. Thanks
Jon Warner
Well-Known Member
great question...
Back in the 1990's if we wanted to keep SPS we had to set up a special tank with no fish and never feed it. This is how we kept them colorful back then... If you fed the tank or added fish the corals would go brown. We had no easy solutions for NO3 and PO4 back then. So we starved the tank.
Now we can absolutely crush nutrients with products like ecoBAK and GFO and high quality protein skimmers. Today we can take a system too far reducing nutrients. So... FEED YOUR TANK. Add some Amino Acids... a PALE coral is a hungry coral. In the past these nutrients would make for healthy coral but they'd be brown because of the PO4/NO3 level in the water. Now we can keep "end product" nutrients super low while feeding a system. Use high quality foods like Reef Nutrition and high quality, high performance Amino Acids.
So the secret to a 2012 reef aquarium? Crush the PO4 and NO3, feed the system with quality foods, skim like crazy, maintain your water parameters, invest in a handful of ecotech or tunze's and employ powerful lighting. Done deal.
Last edited:
Similar threads
TOP 10 Trending Threads
-
- Sticky
