SPS STN. Need a sanity check

OP
OP
CRABDADDY

CRABDADDY

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
269
Reaction score
178
Location
Wisconsin
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Ok, a lot to unwrap here. Instead of responding to everyone individually, I'll just try to hit the major points.

Lighting:
Here are my par readings 55% light readings.jpeg
Most of my frags were on the rack on the left, around 400 par. Some were mounted on the rocks. All of them are getting at least 300 PAR. I'm seeing issues develop across all frags, regardless of lighting. So I suspect lighting is not the issue.

Nitrates and phosphates:

Yes, that phosphate levels were something I was struggling with. I was dosing 5 mLs of neophos a day with no increase in phosphates until I removed my chemipure blue. Then I was able to get it to acceptable ranges. I don't always record when I test for phosphates but I test at least every other day. It's been fluctuating between 0.03-0.1. I still have to dose about 5mLs a week to keep it there.

Even when it was low, I believe some phosphates were present in the system because of how much I was dosing, but I do believe this could have been a potential issue. it's since been corrected.

As for nitrates, I can't get them up above 2-3 ppm. I could turn my skimmer off completely, as they were higher before I started using it, but I know many people have success at these levels and I'm trying not to change too many things at once unless there's clearly something wrong. Maybe I'm in the wrong here, and I'm open to being convinced to shut the skimmer down.

Feeding:

I feed heavily. Probably a little too much. I have 5 fish and I feed once daily. Usually a cube of spirulina mysis or tdo pellets. I could up my feeding to twice a day.

I have been dosing amino acids almost daily, probably about 5 drops, which I think is about a quarter of an mL. I'm considering stopping this and simplifying things. I also feed my acros with reef nutrition oyster feast once or twice a week. Occasionally I use reef roids in combination with this.

Alkalinity:
Screenshot_20230510-095749.png
Ignore the chart. In the table you can see roughly how quickly my alk changed. I test more often than I record. In my opinion it was a gradual increase. I do test in the afternoon each day.

Dosing:
Kalk does keep up with my alkalinity demands. Most my stony corals are small frags right now and I use a fully saturated kalk solution, not a slurry. I do this over 2 part because it's cheaper and I want to keep my pH higher. I don't really have interest in changing this. Many people have success with kalk and I don't see this as the issue.

Leathers:

I'm considering removing some of my leathers today. It's a shame because I don't have anywhere to go with them, but I don't want to let a $20 leather kill $300 of acropora. This seems like a safe adjustment to me. The problems did start around the time the devil's hand leather started getting stung, so maybe that is part of the problem. Also, with no activated carbon after I removed the chemipure, maybe there's some toxins in the system that were being removed before.

Overall thoughts:

I'm leaning towards the leather causing problems. I had phosphate issues, but I've since improved my levels. I may look into raisin my nitrate levels. I'm weary of changing a million things at once because corals are already struggling. Thank you all for your suggestions. I'm certainly not giving up here. I'm actually in the process of setting up a 120g tank! I love the challenges reefing brings even if it's sometimes frustrating.
 
OP
OP
CRABDADDY

CRABDADDY

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
269
Reaction score
178
Location
Wisconsin
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Since I started running my skimmer only at night my nutrients have come up nicely.
I would like to do this, but the way I tried it wasn't working. It's a HOB skimmer and the water flows out into the tank when it's turned off, which increases my salinity. My ATO won't kick on until night, which I feel is a bad thing. Is there a way to shut the airline when the skimmer is off so that it keeps the water inside it?
 
OP
OP
CRABDADDY

CRABDADDY

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
269
Reaction score
178
Location
Wisconsin
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Wanted to update this thread because things haven't gotten any better. Nearly all my acro frags have STN now. Most at the tips/base. A couple are still seemingly ok.

No parameter fluctuations and I've been able to keep my nitrates/phosphates above 0.

When other reefers see STN do they immediately remove all affected frags/colonies? It just seems to spread around from frag to frag.

One of my other concerns is that I have some sort of bacterial issue. I've been considering doing an aquabiomics test, but I don't know how much I really want to continue to spend on this issue.

I'm considering using antibiotics to treat the frags/tank. At this point I've got nothing to lose by dipping some of the frags. Most are looking bad, but not too far gone.
 

Dburr1014

7500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
May 8, 2016
Messages
8,425
Reaction score
8,457
Location
CT
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Wanted to update this thread because things haven't gotten any better. Nearly all my acro frags have STN now. Most at the tips/base. A couple are still seemingly ok.

No parameter fluctuations and I've been able to keep my nitrates/phosphates above 0.

When other reefers see STN do they immediately remove all affected frags/colonies? It just seems to spread around from frag to frag.

One of my other concerns is that I have some sort of bacterial issue. I've been considering doing an aquabiomics test, but I don't know how much I really want to continue to spend on this issue.

I'm considering using antibiotics to treat the frags/tank. At this point I've got nothing to lose by dipping some of the frags. Most are looking bad, but not too far gone.
Nothing to lose, everything to gain.
 

saltyfins

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 2, 2020
Messages
760
Reaction score
848
Location
Spokane
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
You said that your Po4 was low for a couple weeks....think that's it. I have had leathers in my tank, and never had issues with STN...that being said, I did when my Po4 bottomed out. stn and a couple that got burnt tips. lost 2...
 

doubleshot00

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 13, 2022
Messages
2,767
Reaction score
2,726
Location
Wilmington
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Wanted to update this thread because things haven't gotten any better. Nearly all my acro frags have STN now. Most at the tips/base. A couple are still seemingly ok.

No parameter fluctuations and I've been able to keep my nitrates/phosphates above 0.

When other reefers see STN do they immediately remove all affected frags/colonies? It just seems to spread around from frag to frag.

One of my other concerns is that I have some sort of bacterial issue. I've been considering doing an aquabiomics test, but I don't know how much I really want to continue to spend on this issue.

I'm considering using antibiotics to treat the frags/tank. At this point I've got nothing to lose by dipping some of the frags. Most are looking bad, but not too far gone.
I'm going through this now. I cant keep a 1-2" frag of any SPS but if i put a larger colony in my tank it does ok.

I just sent off a test to aquabiomics to see if i have something going on at the bacteria level. My icp and parameters are good.

I've read in several places that several bad bacteria can be in the frozen food we feed. Mike Paletta just spoke about it. IDK the validity behind it.
 
OP
OP
CRABDADDY

CRABDADDY

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
269
Reaction score
178
Location
Wisconsin
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Nothing to lose, everything to gain.
I agree as far as dipping the frags with antibiotics goes, or did you mean removing the frags?
You said that your Po4 was low for a couple weeks....think that's it. I have had leathers in my tank, and never had issues with STN...that being said, I did when my Po4 bottomed out. stn and a couple that got burnt tips. lost 2...
I'm inclined to think that this is the cause as well. If so, in theory a new frag should do ok. My concern is that if the STN is a bacterial issue that stemmed from a period of low phosphate that it will spread to new acros. Maybe I'm overthinking this.
I'm going through this now. I cant keep a 1-2" frag of any SPS but if i put a larger colony in my tank it does ok.

I just sent off a test to aquabiomics to see if i have something going on at the bacteria level. My icp and parameters are good.

I've read in several places that several bad bacteria can be in the frozen food we feed. Mike Paletta just spoke about it. IDK the validity behind it.
Yeah, I heard Mike talking about this on the reefbum podcast. I do feed frozen and I heard him say he was microwaving his food before he fed it to the tank. I would do that, but I don't have a microwave at my current place.
 

Dburr1014

7500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
May 8, 2016
Messages
8,425
Reaction score
8,457
Location
CT
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I agree as far as dipping the frags with antibiotics goes, or did you mean removing the frags?

I'm inclined to think that this is the cause as well. If so, in theory a new frag should do ok. My concern is that if the STN is a bacterial issue that stemmed from a period of low phosphate that it will spread to new acros. Maybe I'm overthinking this.

Yeah, I heard Mike talking about this on the reefbum podcast. I do feed frozen and I heard him say he was microwaving his food before he fed it to the tank. I would do that, but I don't have a microwave at my current place.
Dipping or just dosing the whole tank.
 

saltyfins

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 2, 2020
Messages
760
Reaction score
848
Location
Spokane
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Have you done this before? I looked into Cipro, which from what I could tell I had to get prescribed from a vet. Oxolinic acid seems more accessable and less intense, but I couldn't find the dosage that I'm supposed to use.
look into the witch hazel treatment. it's safe, and can work well. if it's due to low Po4, it "shouldn't" spread, but you may still see it, due to the corals that went through the bottoming out. they all metabolize at a different rate...
 
OP
OP
CRABDADDY

CRABDADDY

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
269
Reaction score
178
Location
Wisconsin
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
look into the witch hazel treatment. it's safe, and can work well. if it's due to low Po4, it "shouldn't" spread, but you may still see it, due to the corals that went through the bottoming out. they all metabolize at a different rate...
I see. I figured that poor water parameters caused the issue and opened the door for bad bacteria to take over. Then once it's in the system, other corals, even those introduced later could be susceptible to the bad bacteria. I suppose there's no way to really know if that's the case.
 

saltyfins

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 2, 2020
Messages
760
Reaction score
848
Location
Spokane
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I see. I figured that poor water parameters caused the issue and opened the door for bad bacteria to take over. Then once it's in the system, other corals, even those introduced later could be susceptible to the bad bacteria. I suppose there's no way to really know if that's the case.
I personally would tie my hands...or glue them lol, and not add anything for a while. You probably need to figure out why your getting low/high readings, and work on that, while keeping everything else stable. I completely overdosed my tank with Kalk., (I am dyslexic) and really messed things up. so lesson learned there!! But, now I am paying the price, as that took out a 2 of my favorite colonies. I have learned a lot, thanks to someone that took the time, and helped me through it. think back and figure out what changed, then fix it. then keep everything else, as stable as possible
 

Dburr1014

7500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
May 8, 2016
Messages
8,425
Reaction score
8,457
Location
CT
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Have you done this before? I looked into Cipro, which from what I could tell I had to get prescribed from a vet. Oxolinic acid seems more accessable and less intense, but I couldn't find the dosage that I'm supposed to use.
I have not.
I am in the middle of fluconazole for GHA.

I have had a couple colonies go dark and lose a lot of flesh. (dinos) They have fully recovered.

But, as a last ditch and was losing colonies, you bet I would do a dose of cipro.
 

Charlie’s Frags

Follow me on Instagram @Charlies Frags
View Badges
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
6,133
Reaction score
9,464
Location
Houston
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I’ve used cipro before and had zero issues. Ive never had mass rtn events but I tried it a couple times to try a save a random coral that had stn/rtn. It didn’t “cure” whatever was killing the coral but it didn’t hurt anything else
 
OP
OP
CRABDADDY

CRABDADDY

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
269
Reaction score
178
Location
Wisconsin
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I personally would tie my hands...or glue them lol, and not add anything for a while. You probably need to figure out why your getting low/high readings, and work on that, while keeping everything else stable. I completely overdosed my tank with Kalk., (I am dyslexic) and really messed things up. so lesson learned there!! But, now I am paying the price, as that took out a 2 of my favorite colonies. I have learned a lot, thanks to someone that took the time, and helped me through it. think back and figure out what changed, then fix it. then keep everything else, as stable as possible
Yeah, not a bad call. I have turned my skimmer off in efforts to let nitrates and phosphates increase. I still have to dose phosphates multiple times a week to keep them above 0. I'm still not sure why that is. I'm feeding once daily and only have 5 fish in the tank. I'm thinking of starting to feed twice a day.
 
OP
OP
CRABDADDY

CRABDADDY

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
269
Reaction score
178
Location
Wisconsin
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I’ve used cipro before and had zero issues. Ive never had mass rtn events but I tried it a couple times to try a save a random coral that had stn/rtn. It didn’t “cure” whatever was killing the coral but it didn’t hurt anything else
Did it seem to help at all? Where did you get it from?
 

Troylee

all about the diy!!!!!
View Badges
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
18,397
Reaction score
14,437
Location
Vegas baby!!!!
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Yeah, not a bad call. I have turned my skimmer off in efforts to let nitrates and phosphates increase. I still have to dose phosphates multiple times a week to keep them above 0. I'm still not sure why that is. I'm feeding once daily and only have 5 fish in the tank. I'm thinking of starting to feed twice a day.
Reef roids! It will bring that po4 right up and make your corals super happy! I was having the same problem with 15 fish..neophos and Neo nitro was getting expensive dosed reef roids and some stump remover and my po4 and no3 shot up and my corals have never looked better!
 

Creating a strong bulwark: Did you consider floor support for your reef tank?

  • I put a major focus on floor support.

    Votes: 40 42.1%
  • I put minimal focus on floor support.

    Votes: 21 22.1%
  • I put no focus on floor support.

    Votes: 32 33.7%
  • Other.

    Votes: 2 2.1%
Back
Top