Discussion in 'Fish Discussion' started by 4FordFamily, Sep 29, 2015.

Tang Aggression - Understanding and Combating

  1. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2018 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    I wouldn’t advise adding any powder Blue, powder brown, or similar acanthurus tangs until you remove and treat all fish for ich. They cannot handle ich management. Here’s some reading for you (another article I wrote on the subject matter).

    https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/ich-and-acanthurus-tangs-years-of-experience-and-ich-management.106/

    Also, what you witnessed was a tank boss shift. You don’t want an aggressive fish as tank boss. This is one reason people like adding large naso tangs or larger docile tangs early— it disincentivizes a smaller and much nastier tang from becoming tank boss and terrorizing everyone, they’re effectively kept in check.
     

  2. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2018 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Yes, you’re pushing your luck, but if your Sohal and powder blue are 2-3 inches, you MAY have a chance. Definitely use a social acclimation box, and have a plan B!

    Lots of variables and risk with mixing tangs, it’s so complex it’s more of an instinct you learn over time with experience. I try to share as much as I can but it depends so much on individual fish temperaments, hierarchy, environment, order of operations, etc.
     
  3. Reef4Rose

    Reef4Rose Active Member Build Thread Contributor

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    That’s kind of what I figured and am learning. Thank you sir!
     
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  4. mdrobc13

    mdrobc13 Member

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    4FordFamily....ich isnt a problem really in the tank. First Powder blue came down with it but since added 50w UV sterilizer which I ran 24/7 for a bout a month and half then switched it on separate 12 hr cycle from my refugium UV light after I started my Triton method over the holidays. Cannot remove and treat all fish for ich...too many and do not have the QT space for that given tank size 210g if I wanted to. That isn't feasible in my case thus why I QT almost 90% of all new fish or have LFS do so.

    Ah understand the tank boss shift explanation and makes sense....so I just tried another evolution of that. Found and added a large Powder Blue Tang about 5-6" who is now the larges acanthrus in the tank. While the clown tang who is about 3 iches and much smaller made a few dashes at him day one after I released him from the acclimation box (acrylic clear with holes for flow- used and put PBT in DT in this for 36 hrs after putting him in the DT with 30hrs lights out then 6 hrs lights on); the clown now leaves him be and they seem to enjoy swimming against the flow from my MP40s most of the time together along with the Med Sailfin tang who also gave him a few brushes when 1st introduced. Purple tang has left him along as has other yellow tangs. Large PBT is now the largest fish in the tank 2nd to my 6" adult Angularis angel and all seem to be doing okay. Also added a small foxface lo and small Vlamingi Naso Tang at the same time as introducing the PBT and they have had no issues or aggression and are doing fine. So far we're almost a week in and no fights...even at feeding time. Also am treating seaweed/nori and mysis with Zoe and Vitachem also to improve their immune system as well. Fingers crossed.

    PBT now cruises the tank and ignores mostly everyone as he goes about his vigorous swimming rounds in and out of the MP40/10s and Gyre flows.

    BTW would I be pushing it IF I added a tennenti (Lieutenant) tang as one last addition? Love how they look. Gut says definitely yes! Heart says why not try before PBT gets too established and rejects any other new fish additions.

    54156114117__B5191C2E-8A2D-4554-89F2-19ADAB369831.JPG

    IMG_0814.jpg

    IMG_0388.JPG
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  5. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2018 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Swimming in the flow is a sign of velvet, watch that very intently.

    Unfortunately I see a ticking time bomb with disease, I’ve been there and done that many times. Beautiful fish and tank, though! :)
     
  6. mdrobc13

    mdrobc13 Member

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    Okay will do that then....my clown tang has been doing that like forever...maybe 3-4 months as has the Purple Tang and Sailfin who join in sometimes....given the PBT's propensity to like strong flow and gyre's figure that is the cause why he joined the swim club with the clown tang since introduced. The smaller Clown especially likes to hover in front of my MP10 at night regularly. Its like he's surfing the current almost from my perspective and what I can see. Most of the time they do this at night and not all day long 24/7. They get in formation almost (tangs) and just cruise the flow...will see if I can get a picture of them doing it tonight.

    Have seen velvet before..it kills quickly...had a chevron tang bring it into my tank and lost like a fish a day until only a handful were alive with my 150g tank 2 yrs ago. Will keep my eye on them. PBT is dashing about the tank now from side to side while everyone else cruises about trying to stay out of his way since he swims so fast Read your article...thanks! Great info!
     
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  7. Ento-Reefer

    Ento-Reefer Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Delaware Reef Club Build Thread Contributor

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    looking for some advice on adding a tang or two after I get the rest of my planned fish into my 180g. Current tangs are a Ctenochaetus cyanocheilus, and a Scopas . I have had the blue lipped for 4 years so I think it is full sized or close to it and he is the boss. The scopas doesn't bother anyone and I have had it since December.

    Current Stock
    Ctenochaetus cyanocheilus
    Scopas
    Melanurus
    Firefish x 3
    Diamond Goby
    Azure damsel x 2 (Pair)

    Planned additions
    Leopard Wrasse x 2
    Flasher Wrasse x 2
    Black Occ clown x 2

    Possible Tang Choices
    Powder Blue
    Purple Tang
    Mimic Tang
    Blue hippo

    Of the 4 tangs listed which two would have the best chance of fitting in with my current and planned stock? I would actually be fine with adding only one more tang, but I worry that would not work as I have always heard adding 2 or more at once works better. My hubby would really like for me to add the powder blue, but I am not set on any of them and would be happy with any. I should add that all fish have been qt and are disease free and all future fish will also be qt by me or I will purchase from Humblefish:)

    IMG-1028.jpg
     
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  8. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2018 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Hello, I commend your planning and forethought, first and foremost.

    To be honest, none of those tangs should disagree with future additions. Adding a purple could cause issues with the scopas as they can be little devils sometimes but more importantly they’re of the same genus. If you were to add more zebrasoma tangs id recommend two more of different species added concurrently.

    Powder blue and mimic are both acanthurus tangs, and of any ich exists you’ll know in short order! Mimic are a handsome fish but not nearly as aggressive as the PBT, which I classify as the most aggressive tang, all else considered. Unforgiving and relentless, and not a fish to forgive and forget, often holding grudges for months before the beat up fish is returned, only to immediately single it and only it out all over again. For this reason, I’d recommend if you did a powder blue, it be the last tang/angel/butterfly added to the tank. They tend to be most aggressive to tangs, then butterflies due to similar shape, then angels similar in shape, but some angels stay off the radar altogether.

    A powder blue as the lone tang tends to bully other fish species as well to assert dominance, but if other tangs are present I’ve seen this behavior be few and far between. In short, they’ll choose to boss around kin, which is usually less problematic than bullying weaker or more submissive wrasse and other fish.

    Hippo of these, will eventually outgrow the tank. They get very large. It may take years for this to occur, however. They’re usually more docile and get along well with tangs that won’t beat on it, which is not many. More tangs = less singling out of any individual tang - usually. Exceptions always exist and so it’s always a risk when mixing these aggressive herbivores.

    I am quite fond of powder blues, despite their nasty dispotion. I find them to be worth it if kept disease free and kept among other tangs.

    For color reasons, I’d choose either PBT or Hippo, and then probably the mimic. Even though the mimic and PBT are both acanthurus, they’re different enough in shape that it’s not likely to be problematic if added together.

    I hope this helps!
     
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  9. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2018 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Also, to reduce the odds of a tyrant powder becoming being take boss should you go that route (which can be problematic) I recommend neutralizing it with a larger tang (if you had a larger tank, naso are a great equalizer). Sailfin tangs are often more docile as far as zebrasoma tangs go, and i would be more shocked if a small scopas pressed its luck with a sailfin, though they share the zebrasoma genus.

    Of course, over time if the powder blue grows faster, social dynamics may change, causing the powder blue to take over as tank boss. Sometimes this is an issue, other times it is not—- some just want the authority and feel no need to use it.

    However, this can also be achieved by buying a small powder blue. I find them very difficult to keep smaller than 2.3-3 inches, however. 3-4 inches is a hardy enough size, typically. A large bristlooth tang can be a good tank boss, although I find Kole to be tyrannical on occasion.
     
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  10. Ento-Reefer

    Ento-Reefer Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Delaware Reef Club Build Thread Contributor

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    Thank you @4FordFamily for the advice. I would rather not add a fish that would need to be removed later if at all possible, so the hippo is out. I kind of figured it would get a little large for this tank. This is my first time having a tank large enough to keep multiple tangs so I don’t have any personal experience with keeping more than 2 in a tank.
    The blue lipped is boss, but it is not the largest fish lol. It is pretty mellow and just displays a little to the melanirus and occasionally chases the diamond out of its way. Would a sailfin outgrow the 180? If not maybe adding a larger sailfin and medium PBT at the same time would work? What do you think? Would the PBT as the only other tang added alone work? I have never seen one available less then 3” so it will be at least that size. Thanks
     
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  11. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2018 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Yes eventually a sailfin can outgrow a 180 as well but they’re not very demanding with regards to tank space like some larger tangs. In truth most tangs in my 180 will eventually outgrow it, but I rehome fish when needed. I plan to build a large wall tank so I’ll have a place for the giants!
     
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  12. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Tank 365 Partner Member 2018 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor North Alabama Reef Club

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    Only an uncaring, insensitive fish keeper would ever put a sailfin in a 180g tank.
    upload_2018-3-7_12-9-57.png

    Or @4FordFamily has one in his and it should be fine. :p
     
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  13. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2018 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    I have a hippo in mine as well! Lol
     
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  14. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Tank 365 Partner Member 2018 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor North Alabama Reef Club

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    Yeah, but your Hippo Tang is a coward.

    No one should ever put one in a 6' tank, let alone a 5' tank like mine. That is why I went with these fish.
    upload_2018-3-7_12-16-8.png
     
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  15. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2018 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    That hippo looks really really unhealthy and thin. It’s probably malnourishment and overcrowdedness :D
     
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  16. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Tank 365 Partner Member 2018 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor North Alabama Reef Club

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    It's not a Hippo Tang. It's a Dory. There is a difference. :rolleyes:

    And Dory isn't a yellow bellied coward! :p

    On a more serious note, have you ever seen a Hippo that didn't have at least a little HLLE? I have never seen one, in person or in a picture, that didn't have at least some.
     
  17. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2018 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    My yellow belly is unhappy too

    7770A069-DD98-4351-96C2-6395A3DE9EB5.jpeg 911F82E3-83A5-4E22-B485-29B90901CAC5.jpeg

    I can’t believe you think a Maggie fox face is an acceptable tankmate for your hippo.
     
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  18. 4FordFamily

    4FordFamily Tang, Angel, & Wrasse Addict Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2018 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor

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    Yes I have, but not over 4 inches. I’ve more or less considered it an “adult plumage”.
     
  19. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Tank 365 Partner Member 2018 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor North Alabama Reef Club

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    It's a heck of a lot better than putting one in a system with a Yellow Tang like you keep yours! :eek:
     
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  20. Brew12

    Brew12 Electrical Gru Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Tank 365 Partner Member 2018 Article Contributor Build Thread Contributor North Alabama Reef Club

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    I'm feeling the same way. Mine is pushing 7" right now and I keep hoping it may go away. I'll just take comfort that it is much better than many other Hippo's its size that I have seen.
     
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