Tank Nuked! All Fish Dead

BRS

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The fish are staring at me with hungry eyes.
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As the OP hasn't been back since posting this thread I think further speculations are pointless.

Those deadly magical parasites....
iu
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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really? he started QT recently, so I'm proud of him. Nice delayed couch umpiring though

I had chatted several times with Miami reef, he's a resourceful strong reefer and able to self assess based on relayed patterns. You may disagree, but then again offering no content that's useful is the other end of the behavioral spectrum. If you had something to offer regarding disease control likelihood, options, outcomes youve seen in thread patterns I'd enjoy reading it and if it stood in stark contrast to my offers then I'll take a note.


your critique on tone is noted


curious also to know your specific advice on disease control for large tanks, that's what we should collect here.
 
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Miami Reef

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Eh, he was kind of too direct, but I will admit he was correct about my fate. If you look back he said he predicted that my tank will crash from disease on September. While it was a pretty harsh assumption, I did lose quite a bit of fish (not unexpected; didn’t quarantine and added fish from many different sources). While he was harsh, there was still a grain of truth in what he said.

Brandon is controversial to say the least. Have a thread about cycling or algae blooms…he’ll be there with paragraphs after paragraphs. But nevertheless, he’s a good guy.
 

Miami Reef

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really? he started QT recently, so I'm proud of him. Nice delayed couch umpiring though

I had chatted several times with Miami reef, he's a resourceful strong reefer and able to self assess based on relayed patterns. You may disagree, but then again offering no content that's useful is the other end of the behavioral spectrum. If you had something to offer regarding disease control likelihood, options, outcomes youve seen in thread patterns I'd enjoy reading it.
Heh. I’m proud of me too. :)
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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"Stock is currently 2 clowns, 3 yellow damsels, 1 blue damsel, and emerald crab If that helps. I’ve been doing a two gallon water change every other day."


Looks like you did skip it, even after reading and preps for two months.


i meant for that impact writing to stand out, uncomfortably. No different than any pet forum where a keeper buys animals then directly sets them up for harm.


you need to re fallow as well.

I take issue with large tankers who have cash, but not enough self control to protect animals even after they were informed well enough to do so. Our hobby is hated by some for that exact mode of waste. Large healthy fish caught, sold, killed in home tanks.


Miami Reef
What changed your mind regarding quarantine? I honestly thought you would not consider it. As you post updates and reasons you circled back to considering it, that specifically helps other large tankers align with disease forum trends and protect investments long before losses drive them back to the inevitable. The ideal would be for new tankers to start the right way, vs lose fish and be forced there. This thread is now added to our large cycling threads as pre fish reading work, if we had a few stern posts regarding fish disease vs coddling everyone all the time we'd waste less animals. You can tell now the September/ buy new fish prediction wasn't completely off the mark.

If any sensitive readers have a pit bull chained to a dead front yard tree in the middle of summer too, don't post about that in dog forums.

I didnt have fun posting here, its why I left for a good while and unsubbed from most posters here permanently. It would be much appreciated to not see it again, as my stance got firmer it didnt change.


if that's bothersome to any new readers, then skip reading the unlikable parts and certainly withhold guidance on my opinions about unregulated fish consumption in the hobby.
 
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AS

Miami Reef

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I knew I had to QT from the beginning. But I didn’t because I used ocean water, bought corals, inverts. I thought it was pointless because I would introduce ich regardless.

When I started losing my fish and seeing ich spots I would get really stressed. Waking up every morning with a new fish stuck to the power head was ruining my tank for me.

The moment I realized that all I wanted was a peace of mind was when I really considered quarantine.

It didn’t come easy, and I had to make sacrifices. First, doing my own water changes. That was the biggest sacrifice in my opinion.

My tank is stocked with corals and inverts which really takes off the pressure of new pest introduction.

Also, learning about the diseases and treatments was a huge barrier. I thought I could never do it.

Once I overcame those struggles I realized it wasn’t bad at all.

(Note: I contacted Live Aquaria and they keep all their corals and inverts in a separate system with no contact to fish)

I am holding off on corals until I figure out if I’m going to QT them or not.

@brandon429 This is the equation of change:

There is a pain of making new changes. There’s also a pain of staying the same.

Change will ONLY happen if the pain (or perceived pain) is greater than the pain of changing.

For me, walking past my tank every day and inspecting every fish in hopes they wouldn’t die was the pain that was greater than the pain of quarantining everything.
 

sksouthpaw

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In medicine when we are confronted with a complex diagnosis with multiple possibilities, we start with a differential list of possible causes then start ruling things out. It helps to be methodical. So what kills fish? (just brainstorming here and some are already unlikely given what was presented). Add more ideas if you think of them then start crossing out what you can

1. Ammonia
2. Nitrite
3. Pathogens (velvet would be the suspicious one do to the speed)
4. Hypoxia ( had an old jbj cube with the easily detachable surface skimmer that was knocked off one night by an urchin, the lack of surface movement caused enough hypoxia to kill a few fish by morning). Plus anyone who has gone through a long blackout knows how the fish suffer and also how they respond to tank cpr (scoop water and dump back in over and over until fish perk up or power returns)
5. Rapid pH swings
6. Rapid temperature swings
7 rapid salinity changes
8 organic toxins (puffer, cucumbers, sea apples, dinoflagellates)
9. Inorganic toxins: bleach, heavy metals, etc
10. Predation
11. Stray voltage

Some of these can (or were already ruled out) with basic testing

See if the surviving fish has evidence of infection.

Do an inventory of inverts to see if any could be toxic to fish. Include soft corals that might be stressed (lobophytum, sarcophyton, cladiella , some sinularia can be pretty toxic to fish).

Consider if you could have had a spawning event that put a sudden influx of organic and potentially toxic material in the tank. I had green star polyps spawn in the past. The red eggs went into the overflow and started breaking down in the filter sponge. Fish didn’t mind but snails started keeling over pretty quick. Sluggish ones survived when I siphoned out all the eggs and cleaned the sponge. Also have had mass synchronized bristleworm spawns in past that really clouded up the tank. Stomatella as well but not as severe

Send water for advanced testing for toxins, heavy metals. I use ATI. Several other brands just as reliable I would think

At the least , do big water change and run fresh carbon

hope this helps, and sorry about losing the fish. Really painful when that happens
I usually start with a history before my working diagnosis and differentials, and if you already have the complex diagnosis you likely would have had to work through your differential list already ;)
Jk jk
 

ReefHomieJon

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Hello. I came back from a 2 day leave and all my fish were randomly dead except for my one chromi. All my corals are opened and reacting normally. I did not notice any signs of disease nor were the fish acting any differently when I last saw them. I am very confused and do not know what could have killed them. Puffer fish was last to die but is it a possibility that it released its neurotoxin. Additionally, all of my inverts are alive and well. I appreciate any input. Here is the picture of my dead fish.

Tank specs:
1.5 year old
Red Sea Reefer 425 XL
Filtration: Red Sea Skimmer (oversized), mechanical filtration, carbon

64496119547__5EB68D7C-9A46-4C6B-B2AA-FEF130E03185.jpeg
Always hits different when a yellow tang dies for some reason
 

Azedenkae

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If he chose to start QT, I doubt it was due to your attacking attitude. As far as “delayed couch umpiring” goes, I’m a new reefer trying to learn more by reviewing threads. Information is available in stickies, but current issues and resolutions are found in the threads.
There were actual helpful posts earlier in this thread from a few people, so read those to learn about the contrasts. They are quite evident.
As I’m just learning, I have no constructive advice on disease control. I do recognize non constructive advice though.
Even grumpy old men have compassion and provide advice without attacking the person asking.
Just ignore him like a lot of us have. Not worth the headache.
 

sksouthpaw

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Just ignore him like a lot of us have. Not worth the headache.
He makes good points about QT but berating people isnt the way to illicit meaningful change.
If i just yelled at my patients and purposely made them feel stupid just to prove a point and stroke my ego when they come in with health issues, (even though many of which are direct sequela from a lifetime of abusing their body or modifiable risk factors which they chose to ignore) A) I would have zero patients and no job and B) the most important thing is that they will automatically go on the defensive and will not produce the desired “change”. They will likely walk out of my office resentful and tell everyone what a horrible pcp I am even though what I said is correct and has truth. If they feel their sense of self is being attacked, they will put up a wall and will not heed any of the information you are trying to convey to take charge of their issue.

Brandon means well but he is an ineffectual communicator.
provide people the facts, guide them and help them understand. Don’t diminish them as a human being just because you may know more on the given subject than they do. If he did this I think he would actually be of some help and be able to guide a lot of newer reefers with better results.
 
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Azedenkae

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He makes good points about QT but berating people isnt the way to illicit meaningful change.
If i just yelled at my patients and purposely made them feel stupid just to prove a point and stroke my ego when they come in with health issues, (even though many of which are direct sequela from a lifetime of abusing their body or modifiable risk factors which they chose to ignore) A) I would have zero patients and no job and B) the most important thing is that they will automatically go on the defensive and will not produce the desired “change”. They will likely walk out of my office resentful and tell everyone what a horrible pcp I am even though what I said is correct and has truth. If they feel their sense of self is being attacked, they will put up a wall and will not heed any of the information you are trying to convey to take charge of their issue.

Brandon means well but he is an ineffectual communicator.
provide people the facts, guide them and help them understand. Don’t diminish them as a human being just because you may know more on the given subject than they do. If he did this I think he would actually be of some help and be able to guide a lot of newer reefers with better results.
Absolutely. That and listening - actually listening, or in this case, reading what others actually write is also important.

I absolutely agree that he means well. It is a massive shame. I tried hard not to block him initially, and unblocked him multiple times actually given he is knowledgeable. But the berating is too much. :(

Hope he gets to read all of this though and maybe see through some change.
 

Reef.

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I have to say I think @brandon429 has been judged very harshly in this thread.

If Brandon was a doctor and had spoke to his patient as directly as he has been speaking here, I could understood the harsh criticism he has been receiving, but its not a one on one conversation, it's a thread, with many different points of view, shows of sympathy, opinions etc given in many different tones.

I feel it very acceptable that at least one of those voices can be a little more to the point, every post doesn't have to be sympathetic in nature.

His posts have been direct but not rude, just because he hasn't expressed sympathy doesn't mean he is unsympathetic, he has just chosen to be the person that has said what he felt needed to be said in a more direct way, sometimes thats the best approach.
 

Reef.

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Sympathy is certainly never a requirement, and each person has a right to express their own viewpoints. I am also a fairly direct person and diplomacy is difficult at times when I feel I’m stating the obvious. Yet stating something directly does not mean it has to be demeaning to the other person. Several of his comments were more demeaning than direct in nature. I’m just here trying to learn, and certainly didn’t mean to start anything. I did not, however appreciate his bringing up a post of mine and saying I hadn’t learned anything in my reading because I hadn’t QT’d my fish, when in fact I was in the process of that with my 10 gallon tank when I posted. I asked a question about parameters, and I certainly didn’t feel the need to explain the purpose of my 10 gallon stocked with 1” fish. I don’t know why, but it seems from reading several of his responses that Brandon makes inaccurate assumptions about what people are doing (or not doing), and forms his comments based on those assumptions. He can be whomever he wishes to be, but he needs to keep his incorrect assumptions to himself. And try to be helpful in the thread, not demeaning towards others.

we can't account for how someone takes our words, so if someone felt demeaned by his words I can not say, what I can say is that in this thread, he has not used demeaning language, making assumptions or inaccuracies doesn't amount to demeaning someone.

I do find it odd that those arguing to show the OP sympathy and understanding do not seem to extent that same understanding to Brandon, at most he has been a little direct in his views, but let's keep this in proportion, he has feelings too just as you and I do and the OP.
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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In no way does people studying prep for reef tanks and clearly reading about disease preps and then skipping them and then posting about dying fish and then resisting known safety preps tie into nurse interactions in a doctors office


also, cross off ammonia and nitrite from the list earlier of fish kill possibilities, it’s not.


At no time did a reef tank originally fail to control ammonia and then fish died, fish death from disease precedes ammonia spikes. Having an accurate list to check from helps…it’s consistently amazing how disease prep and consequence is prominent in the disease forum as an etiology but not outside the forum. new readers, dont build a large tank by skipping preps you’ve read about.

you are purposefully killing fish by skipping known preps you already read about, deserves no coddling. If you never heard about disease preps, or how outside the fish disease forum all the pros have the answers (but never actually work in the disease forum) then you’re forgiven, re fallow your disease vectored tank and begin.


The most important takeaway from this thread is take responsibility for for $1500 in fish placed into a ten thousand dollar 300 gallon aquarium, the sensitivity level in the face of harmful animal keeping is really hard to digest.

it’s ok if we disagree, doesn’t change my stance at all. if you decide today to go out and put the rarest African cat you could possibly own on the visa, you're expected to know how its diet and housing works and how to keep it alive with unique needs


that’s where we should base tank preps on before buying angels and tangs and all manner of non treated fish. The ability to produce accurate cycles and instant load carry has tripled diseased animal waste and LOSS patterns, yet the reading / studying public are skipping preps for the instant gratification more and more because so many folks who don’t do work in the disease forum pretend to have working options the public can consistently repeat.

You’d all just as quickly deride someone for doing a fish-in cycle due to ammonia burning (doesn’t happen, bottle bac works) and never mention the disease aspect, groupthink has a grip here. nothing is changing to lower fish loss waste in the hobby, quit doing the cause over and over and back patting each other afterwards would be my consistent recommend. This thread is operant conditioning gold in our cycling threads. You’d be amazed how many cyclers are reading up on this controversy, I bet the result is we get a few more quarantiners out of a group of folks who may not have.




You simply must have a disease protocol in place, even if its not quarantine based. Be accountable for best practices. It is just as required for you to have a disease plan in place to be a responsible reef owner as it is for you to understand the basics of fishkeeping before setting up the tank, such as cycling rules.


I just saw a reef tank in person this week that uses the protocol of higher temps maintained in the tank to suppress disease expression, they dont aim to totally eliminate vectoring, the tank is warmer than usual. its working quite nicely, that's a plan in place being executed and it didnt involve quarantining. respectable. She prepped for her mixed fish load by implementing a strategy she found from trusted reefing friends and several patterned reports, she did not just set up a reef and add in all the fish.


cycle portion was no risk at all bottle bac has you taken care of.

The most pressing issue in any cycling thread is the fish disease aspect, its not the actual cycle, those can't be messed up at all. Disease emergence is this serious. Besides, you wont have access to as many repeat buy fish now that supplies are crunched, you'd better preserve the ones already bought.
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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I do hope the supply crunch affects fish access, that'll teach some elevated care responsibility. Certainly wouldnt affect my daily reefing if it happens, slowing rate of fish purchase would be good for a while.
 
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BRS

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