The DSR Method (Dutch Synthetic Reefing)

[glennf]

Again with the "perhaps I missed something" disclaimer, but I also don't see how this DSR method addresses the Cl- / SO4-- imbalance that is implicit in using only chloride salts for maintaining calcium and magnesium, and specifically only adding sulfate when making up new water. And, yes, I'm aware of this page, which really doesn't address this specific issue at all. I'm very curious what the specific major ion values were on Glenn's Triton test, and the S in particular. I would expect that it would be relatively quite low, given the information available to me. Not that there is necessarily any evidence that there is anything at all wrong with that.

Many ions are being introduced with food.
I have established SO4 (can) become to high in some cases, so i decide to primary use MgCl2 to topup my Mg.

Just to be clear!
I am not chasing NSW, but i am trying to learn more about the bounderies corals thrive, without counting every grain of salt.

With over 200 living receptors in my tank i have the ability to step in when action needed to be taken.

Should the problem arise that SO4 will affect the corals there is always a way of measuring it with a ICP labtest and supplementing it manually.

The latest DSR calculator has a tab for sulphate correction.

With SO4 up 300ppm higher and lower (than 904ppm) there seems to be no corals negatively affected.

My tank is now 11y with no periodic WC and i seldom supplemented SO4
Maybe once or twice a year i feel like using MgSO4 instead of MgCl2 but that's it....

 

[glennf]

DSR calculator version v150820 sulphate

https://drive.google.com/folderview...1ER3AwaTBQZUp4TFJXUnB3b2pVclJDVGc&usp=sharing

use microsoft excel to open the file.
When you have issues with opening/edit the sheet (i.e. readonly), copy the file from the download map to a new map and make sure the name filename is "DSRcalc.xls"

Happy Reefing, GlennF.

 

[glennf]

If you do a ICP-OES labtest and S should be lower than desired. This is the way to do the correction.

Example:
S target = 904ppm
S measured = 698ppm (icp measurement)
You have a S defficiency of 206ppm

This is how to go about:
-start the S calculator
- type th water volume
- use the "auto calculator" section and fill target S = 206ppm (meaning you like to topup 206ppm )
The S calculator wil tell you how much MgSO4 is needed to bring S up to level (904ppm).

'

From the picture you can tell ~713gram MgSO4 is needed to do the correction.

Next is to weight~713 gram MgSO4 and set it aside in a airtight container.
From now on you only dose MgSO4 (instead of MgCl2) from this container till it's used up.
When this amouth MgSO4 is used "S" will be as targeted and you can go back to use MgCl2 to topup Mg

Because the DSR calculator does the calculation for MgCl2 you need to multiply this weight by 1,18 when using MgSO4 to topup. (MgCl2 has 18% more Mg).

 

[glennf]

Yes, DSR ignorance of ion displacement always amazes me. Especially if the final goal is no water changes.

Pretty simpel if salinity should creep up, you just remove some water (using the DSR calculator). With this also removing Na and Cl excess.
In real life your skimmer and water you give away with frags does the trick....
Some people with extreme growth (and frag selling) even need to add pure NaCl to topup low salinity.
Other macro values are being topped up directly or at the next measurement.

So nothing to sit and worry about. Everything comes around when you keep track with the measurements and the way the calculator is designed to work.

 

[biom]

Pretty simpel if salinity should creep up, you just remove some water (using the DSR calculator). With this also removing Na and Cl excess.
In real life your skimmer and water you give away with frags does the trick....
Some people with extreme growth (and frag selling) even need to add pure NaCl to topup low salinity.
Other macro values are being topped up directly or at the next measurement.
So nothing to sit and worry about. Everything comes around when you keep track with the measurements and the way the calculator is designed to work.

Thank you, but I mean ionic disbalance, not increasing of salinity, correction of salinity does not improve ionic balance. But now it seems that sulfates displacement is somehow addressed in new version of calculator (it will be good if this part of calculator have English translation). IMO balanced dosing is better option than regular Triton tests followed by correction with MgSo4 https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/real-two-part-dosing.209613/. Good luck!

 

[glennf]

Hopefully @glennf will update this thread soon. I can't see this thread staying up an active as an advertisement for him without at least keeping this thread up to date.

Sorry david ...
I need to prioritize, this is just one of those hobby's of mine that get out of hand [emoji3] .
If i have spare time i fully dive into things, which nearly always results into time shortage.

I like to be challenged, otherwise i get bored very easy.
So when people ask i will elaborate.

 

[JimWelsh]

Thank you for the explanation, Glenn. I seriously doubt that enough sulfate comes in with food to balance out the excess chloride in a tank with heavy demand from many stony corals, but, then, I don't have the evidence to back that statement up, either. In my fish room, I can easily estimate sulfate content of my tank water with very good precision and accuracy by measuring the chloride with the Mohr method.

I agree that having a sulfate correction is nice, but planning on having to address this in the first place is even nicer. I also understand that you aren't chasing NSW levels, and again, I have no evidence to show that any particular chloride/sulfate ratio is harmful to marine animals, but will argue that it is easy to plan to at least make an effort to keep this simple ratio somewhat in balance relative to NSW, absent any compelling reason to do otherwise. In other words, if you don't have a good reason to deliberately deviate from NSW ratios, then why develop an approach that, on the face of it, deviates?

 

[glennf]

Thank you, but I mean ionic disbalance, not increasing of salinity, correction of salinity does not improve ionic balance. But now it seems that sulfates displacement is somehow addressed in new version of calculator (it will be good if this part of calculator have English translation). IMO balanced dosing is better option than regular Triton tests followed by correction with MgSo4 https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/real-two-part-dosing.209613/. Good luck!

Increased salinity is an inbalance of (rest product of i.e. NaHCO3 and CaCl2 ) both Na+ and Cl- ions (related to other ions)

Yeah ... i need some inspiration to translate many dutch topics.[emoji85]


What is balance dosing?
The consumption dynamics in every reef tank is very wide spead.
Most balanced dosing are base on WC schemes.
Only with measurement you can establisch a pattern.
Imo I would be wast effort to (over)dose something with no visible purpose.

I have seem situations where people use 1:6 ratio MgSO4:MgCl2 and their S measured 1400+ with weekly WC scheme, so i choose to find a sweetspot.
I believe food have more S than Cl, so i avoid regular MgSO4 dosing

 

[glennf]

Thank you for the explanation, Glenn. I seriously doubt that enough sulfate comes in with food to balance out the excess chloride in a tank with heavy demand from many stony corals, but, then, I don't have the evidence to back that statement up, either. In my fish room, I can easily estimate sulfate content of my tank water with very good precision and accuracy by measuring the chloride with the Mohr method.

I agree that having a sulfate correction is nice, but planning on having to address this in the first place is even nicer. I also understand that you aren't chasing NSW levels, and again, I have no evidence to show that any particular chloride/sulfate ratio is harmful to marine animals, but will argue that it is easy to plan to at least make an effort to keep this simple ratio somewhat in balance relative to NSW, absent any compelling reason to do otherwise. In other words, if you don't have a good reason to deliberately deviate from NSW ratios, then why develop an approach that, on the face of it, deviates?

The method was never be share, but solely meant for my own use.

I kept a day to day blog of what i did on my home forum since 2008. (Tank is running since 2004 with no regular WC)
http://www.zeewaterforum.info/forum...enn-s-Aquaria-Verzameling&p=628840#post628840

People were just ignoring and laughing at me... until i got the result to show for.

Than they became interested and ask me how did i overcome the (un)usual problems and to share how to...
A few pioneers adopted my method with great result.
http://www.zeewaterforum.info/forum...THETISCH-AQUARIUM-PROJECT&p=985888#post985888

But when more people became interested and they did some calculating errors. Because of this and i did not want to explain myself over and over again, i gave it a name and put it al into writing and developed the DSR calculator.
The method was born...due to the request of the dutch reefers

Given the history you... can see my point how i value chasing NSW values?
My point is: it worked without any "balanced S" dosing for a very long stretch op time. Longer than most people pressumed possible en the results are not disappointing.

But now bit by bit i "improve" just to see how it would make a difference.

in holland i have a small community working with my method who talk back to me. Sometimes very interesting topics pas our way en we gather and share/brainstorm about it.
We have a common base. i supply the tools and they can reproduce results to prove a point.

This relation with other pioneering reefers is priceless and will move the hobby forward in holland

Note:
I also (up til now) didn't use (omit) bromide, fluorine, molydenum etc into my salt and methode.

So you see my approach is slight different than most people are used to go about.

But i am not complaining

 

[TNT32D]

Wonderful read, but now more reading from the links you have provided

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Increased salinity is an inbalance of (rest product of i.e. NaHCO3 and CaCl2 ) both Na+ and Cl- ions (related to other ions)

Yeah ... i need some inspiration to translate many dutch topics.[emoji85]


What is balance dosing?
The consumption dynamics in every reef tank is very wide spead.
Most balanced dosing are base on WC schemes.
Only with measurement you can establisch a pattern.
Imo I would be wast effort to (over)dose something with no visible purpose.

I have seem situations where people use 1:6 ratio MgSO4:MgCl2 and their S measured 1400+ with weekly WC scheme, so i choose to find a sweetspot.
I believe food have more S than Cl, so i avoid regular MgSO4 dosing

Have you measured chloride and sulfate in your tank?

It would be nice to know how much one can deviate from NSW ratios and not experience any issues.

 

[biom]

My point is: it worked without any "balanced S" dosing for a very long stretch op time. Longer than most people pressumed possible en the results are not disappointing.
But now bit by bit i "improve" just to see how it would make a difference.

Thank you Glenn! Please don't take me wrong, I do think that no water changes approach is one of the possible ways this hobby will take in near future (DSR, Triton and many nameless methods not requiring WC now becomes more and more widespread).
I'm glad to see you are open for suggestions, and fully understand and appreciate your intention to keep DSR as simple as possible, but I think that we are lucky to have brilliant reef chemists here and will be pity if we not "use" them to help us to make this hobby even more accessible. Good luck!

 

[mazoli]

Sr Ba complex is not being used because barium is plenty available through food. Using it wil sky rocket your barium level when working in DSR.
Other methods uses periodic WC, so that is another dynamic.

Thanks Glenn, this helps. So only SrCl should be used, barium, fluoride and bromide should not.

However I completely understand what you are saying about your previous bad experiences and why you choose not to share all details, this will limit acceptance of the "DSR method" since your additives (liquids) are only available in limited locations.

Another aspect by not sharing all details you know so far, is that some people with less knowledge (like me for instance) will start experimenting and will fail, basically will do same mistakes you already did and corrected by trial and error. You are a successfull reefer and ideologically you (DSR) represent what I would like to become. Water changes are a pain, and if proper knowledge is on hand, it can be omitted (eg Triton). I did not change water for more than a year in an SPS reef, but failed after some time, because lack of knowledge and information. DSR could become a Triton@Home using widely available test kits and basic chemicals. Hope that one day you will change your mind and consider sharing all details, which will help reefers interested with this approach.

Cheers,
Zoli

 

[Squamosa]

Many ions are being introduced with food.
I have established SO4 (can) become to high in some cases, so i decide to primary use MgCl2 to topup my Mg.

Just to be clear!
I am not chasing NSW, but i am trying to learn more about the bounderies corals thrive, without counting every grain of salt.

With over 200 living receptors in my tank i have the ability to step in when action needed to be taken.

Should the problem arise that SO4 will affect the corals there is always a way of measuring it with a ICP labtest and supplementing it manually.

The latest DSR calculator has a tab for sulphate correction.

With SO4 up 300ppm higher and lower (than 904ppm) there seems to be no corals negatively affected.

My tank is now 11y with no periodic WC and i seldom supplemented SO4
Maybe once or twice a year i feel like using MgSO4 instead of MgCl2 but that's it....

Hi Glenn
Happy New year
My Sulfate levels are dropping slowly and will supplement my Mg in the sulfate form a few times this year.

I see you have included manganese in the calculator now, are you using the salt or the sulfate?

Here is a screen grab from my Triton test.

Cheers,
Tony

 

[Tangchaser]

I'm almost a year in with no water changes. My growth is great and my water parameters are stable. I currently test.
Cal
Alk
Mag
Iodine
Strontium
Potassium
Iron
Nitrates
Phosphate
Salinity
I'm still learning on this subject but was wondering what we're some of the fall backs? On another note to me what I have noticed so far is that some of these parameters can deplete somewhat low overtime and the coral shows small signs such as color loss but continues to grow. Even in the case of calcium there is still growth below 300 ppm. I got interested in this method because I work out of town for extended periods of time. I would come home and do a water change and it world change my parameters so quick it would harm my sps. I find that dosing my tank I can raise everything back slowly. I by no means am a perfect reefer and I am only learning by my experience on this.

 

[glennf]

Wonderful read, but now more reading from the links you have provided

As long as people are interested i will keep it going. Bare in mind this is just a thing i do because of the love for the hobby. it's just a side project of mine.. just to keep me busy.
Although is have the luxury of not having a "job" i still ned to prioritize what and ik alway do first what i inspire me the most.

 

[glennf]

Have you measured chloride and sulfate in your tank?

It would be nice to know how much one can deviate from NSW ratios and not experience any issues.

I primary focus on the mainstream easy measursable values and that seem.te work out fine.

Because of this i never bothered to do any labtests.

I did one triton test in 2013 , because i was invited together with a few dutch reefers . This test dit not include S and Cl.

On the duch forum i am more active and interact with many of my users. A few of the them do lab test (just te be save...haha...).

I have a selected groep of 6 users whom sometime also do lab test and from them i get the lab results.

Due to them i implemented the S calculator.
The Cl seems te be pretty wel in controll from most test that i saw.

It seem in most of the cases "S" is either ~200 up or down with no visible stress to corals.

 

[glennf]

Thank you Glenn! Please don't take me wrong, I do think that no water changes approach is one of the possible ways this hobby will take in near future (DSR, Triton and many nameless methods not requiring WC now becomes more and more widespread).
I'm glad to see you are open for suggestions, and fully understand and appreciate your intention to keep DSR as simple as possible, but I think that we are lucky to have brilliant reef chemists here and will be pity if we not "use" them to help us to make this hobby even more accessible. Good luck!

Just fine ...
I love a respectfull discussion, it help us all one step futher than we are right now.

Have you measured chloride and sulfate in your tank?

It would be nice to know how much one can deviate from NSW ratios and not experience any issues.

 

[glennf]

Thanks Glenn, this helps. So only SrCl should be used, barium, fluoride and bromide should not.

However I completely understand what you are saying about your previous bad experiences and why you choose not to share all details, this will limit acceptance of the "DSR method" since your additives (liquids) are only available in limited locations.

Another aspect by not sharing all details you know so far, is that some people with less knowledge (like me for instance) will start experimenting and will fail, basically will do same mistakes you already did and corrected by trial and error. You are a successfull reefer and ideologically you (DSR) represent what I would like to become. Water changes are a pain, and if proper knowledge is on hand, it can be omitted (eg Triton). I did not change water for more than a year in an SPS reef, but failed after some time, because lack of knowledge and information. DSR could become a Triton@Home using widely available test kits and basic chemicals. Hope that one day you will change your mind and consider sharing all details, which will help reefers interested with this approach.

Cheers,
Zoli

My intention is to let people think futher than what the already know.

But i hate it when people who want to earn a easy buck steal (ideas) from others.
So i won't make it easy for them.

I made it easy enough to copy for knowledgeable people.

 

[glennf]

I'm almost a year in with no water changes. My growth is great and my water parameters are stable. I currently test.
Cal
Alk
Mag
Iodine
Strontium
Potassium
Iron
Nitrates
Phosphate
Salinity
I'm still learning on this subject but was wondering what we're some of the fall backs? On another note to me what I have noticed so far is that some of these parameters can deplete somewhat low overtime and the coral shows small signs such as color loss but continues to grow. Even in the case of calcium there is still growth below 300 ppm. I got interested in this method because I work out of town for extended periods of time. I would come home and do a water change and it world change my parameters so quick it would harm my sps. I find that dosing my tank I can raise everything back slowly. I by no means am a perfect reefer and I am only learning by my experience on this.

Watch you PO4 level!
Washed out colors means low....