The DSR Method (Dutch Synthetic Reefing)

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you Randy for you reply. This is a DSR thread, I was looking for Glenn's own reipee, which I could not find it in detail. Happy New Year to you all!

Yes, I know that's what you asked for. I just thought the standard recipe might be be useful. If Glenn does provide one, then you can see how it deviates from it, and if not, you can use it.

 

[JimWelsh]

Hi Glenn, trying to make my own salt. Reading your recipee, the Sr (together with B, I and Fe) are all in ml, based on your 1 liter solutions. I live in Hungary, where I have access to basic Balling additives, like Sr-Ba complex, I-Fl complex and Metal complex (like described here http://reefdreams.de/lang_eng/info_3_eng.html). From here I can get the required dosing in ml if I would know the measure in grams for these. Is this something that could work? I have no other access to these basic elements required in smaller quantities. For boron I can get borax, then calculate the required amount if you could provide this infromation as well. Red through your posts and could not find the amount in gramms for these 4 elements. Thanks, and have a Happy New Year!

It looks to me (meaning I have calculated from Glenn's spreadsheet) that the solutions used for Sr, B, and I are made up as follows:

Sr solution = dissolve 100 grams strontium chloride hexahydrate (SrCl*6H2O) in enough water to make up 1000 mL of solution
B solution = dissolve 45.11 grams of boric acid (H3BO3 / B(OH)3) in enough water to make up 1000 mL of solution, OR
B solution = dissolve 69.56 grams of borax (Na2B4O7*10H2O) in enough water to make up 1000 mL of solution
I solution = dissolve 5 grams of potassium iodide (KI) in enough water to make up 1000 mL of solution

For the Iron, I'm not sure what salt is used. If I was given the identity of a specific salt that would be used, I could do a similar calculation for Iron.

 

[Squamosa]

G

Thank you Randy for you reply. This is a DSR thread, I was looking for Glenn's own reipee, which I could not find it in detail. Happy New Year to you all!

Go to the DSR website and download Glenn's calculator in spreadsheet format, there you will be able to get calculations to make new water or correct imbalances to the water chemistry.

Or look on the first page of this thread for the relevant links

Cheers

 

[JimWelsh]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I see no explanation anywhere of how to make up the solutions @mazoli is asking about, either in the spreadsheet or on any of the links found in this thread.

Now that I have carefully read the whole thread, I see that Glenn chooses not to share these formulas. Fair enough. But, he has shared the spreadsheet, which has buried within it sufficient information to be able to divine the molarity of the element of interest in those mystery solutions. I also now see that the Iron solution is a mixture of Iron(II) sulfate with a citrate chelant. Not surprisingly, the formula for a ferrous sulfate heptahydrate + sodium citrate dihydrate solution that matches Glenn's spreadsheet in terms of the molarity of Iron is the exact same formula that Randy gives in this article which calls for 25g of ferrous sulfate heptahydrate and 50.7g of sodium citrate dihydrate in enough water to make up 250 mL of solution. Now, Glenn has alluded to various twists or tweaks to that solution that he is not disclosing, but if one were to use Randy's recipe, it would have the same molarity of Iron as that called for in Glenn's spreadsheet.

 

[Squamosa]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I see no explanation anywhere of how to make up the solutions @mazoli is asking about, either in the spreadsheet or on any of the links found in this thread.

Now that I have carefully read the whole thread, I see that Glenn chooses not to share these formulas. Fair enough. But, he has shared the spreadsheet, which has buried within it sufficient information to be able to divine the molarity of the element of interest in those mystery solutions. I also now see that the Iron solution is a mixture of Iron(II) sulfate with a citrate chelant. Not surprisingly, the formula for a ferrous sulfate heptahydrate + sodium citrate dihydrate solution that matches Glenn's spreadsheet in terms of the molarity of Iron is the exact same formula that Randy gives in this article which calls for 25g of ferrous sulfate heptahydrate and 50.7g of sodium citrate dihydrate in enough water to make up 250 mL of solution. Now, Glenn has alluded to various twists or tweaks to that solution that he is not disclosing, but if one were to use Randy's recipe, it would have the same molarity of Iron as that called for in Glenn's spreadsheet.

Of course Glenn won't divulge the R & D he's gone through to create his spreadsheet and the formulas work if you use his products!

But as you mention it is not difficult to get to the final concentrations Glenn uses with a bit of trial and error. Glenn only uses laboratory grade reagents in his formulas as far as I am aware and most of those chemicals mentioned in Randy's chemicals could be used to make up the various solutions.

FWIW, I make up my iron solution to Randy's protocol and it works very well, even dosed as per Glenn's spreadsheet.

 

[JimWelsh]

Again with the "perhaps I missed something" disclaimer, but I also don't see how this DSR method addresses the Cl- / SO4-- imbalance that is implicit in using only chloride salts for maintaining calcium and magnesium, and specifically only adding sulfate when making up new water. And, yes, I'm aware of this page, which really doesn't address this specific issue at all. I'm very curious what the specific major ion values were on Glenn's Triton test, and the S in particular. I would expect that it would be relatively quite low, given the information available to me. Not that there is necessarily any evidence that there is anything at all wrong with that.

 

[biom]

Yes, DSR ignorance of ion displacement always amazes me. Especially if the final goal is no water changes.

 

[biom]

Now, Glenn has alluded to various twists or tweaks to that solution that he is not disclosing, but if one were to use Randy's recipe, it would have the same molarity of Iron as that called for in Glenn's spreadsheet.

Twists and tweaks in my opinion mean that this is Randy's recipe but not all of Iron (II) in solution is chelated, i.e. the citric acid is less than 50 gr, but how much only Glenn knows.

 

[The-Russ]

is there anyone in the US that is using this system? Any threads of their progress getting started with pictures?

 

[biom]

Here's a recipe based on grams:

An Artificial Seawater Recipe
For those who are interested, the following artificial seawater recipe is taken from "Chemical Oceanography" by Frank Millero. It makes a recipe that matches 35 ppt seawater in terms of major ions, but does not try to match all minor and trace elements, most of which will be present as impurities in the major elements.

23.98 g sodium chloride
5.029 g magnesium chloride
4.01 g sodium sulfate
1.14 g calcium chloride
0.699 g potassium chloride
0.172 g sodium bicarbonate
0.100 g potassium bromide
0.0254 g boric acid
0.0143 g strontium chloride
0.0029 g sodium fluoride
Water to 1 kg total weight.

Just to clarify that in Millero's recipe MgCl2, CaCl2, SrCl2 are non hydrated and if you are going to use hydrated ones you should recalculate amounts used.

 

[mazoli]

Of course Glenn won't divulge the R & D he's gone through to create his spreadsheet and the formulas work if you use his products!

Not sure why you say this, I thought Glenn is sharing all information regarding his method. But I might have misunderstood his mission and then you might be right. Guess only Glenn can answer this...

Jim, thanks for your replies, it helped. Glenn, can you confirm if you are using the same measures and solutions Jim was mentioning in his post?

Cheers!

 

[revhtree]

Hopefully @glennf will update this thread soon. I can't see this thread staying up an active as an advertisement for him without at least keeping this thread up to date.

 

[The-Russ]

is there anyone in the US that is using this system? Any threads of their progress getting started with pictures?

I can take the silence as a no?

 

[glennf]

It has been quite a while since i had time to look in here.

I am very busy with a (hobby) renovation project.

At purchase:

Outdated and depressing interior which camouflage underlying problems


Now

Completely stripped rewired, replumbed and rebuild with modern material and insulation to save on energy.
More room and more light

 

[reefwiser]

Good work Glenn what type of saw blade do you use to make those great straight cuts.

 

[glennf]

Good work Glenn what type of saw blade do you use to make those great straight cuts.

Festool saw ..the best there is

 

[glennf]

Hi Glenn, trying to make my own salt. Reading your recipee, the Sr (together with B, I and Fe) are all in ml, based on your 1 liter solutions. I live in Hungary, where I have access to basic Balling additives, like Sr-Ba complex, I-Fl complex and Metal complex (like described here http://reefdreams.de/lang_eng/info_3_eng.html). From here I can get the required dosing in ml if I would know the measure in grams for these. Is this something that could work? I have no other access to these basic elements required in smaller quantities. For boron I can get borax, then calculate the required amount if you could provide this infromation as well. Red through your posts and could not find the amount in gramms for these 4 elements. Thanks, and have a Happy New Year!

Hi there.

Read this link
https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?posts/2107352
I hope you find it usefull and that it will clarify why/what i do and don't. I mentioned this from the start to avoid unneccessary discussion and accusations.
I' ve been there before, and i don't much care to do it all over again.


Note:
Use pure (not complex) product because this will affect your water composition negatively.

Sr Ba complex is not being used because barium is plenty available through food. Using it wil sky rocket your barium level when working in DSR.
Other methods uses periodic WC, so that is another dynamic.

 

[glennf]

Here's a recipe based on grams:

An Artificial Seawater Recipe
For those who are interested, the following artificial seawater recipe is taken from "Chemical Oceanography" by Frank Millero. It makes a recipe that matches 35 ppt seawater in terms of major ions, but does not try to match all minor and trace elements, most of which will be present as impurities in the major elements.

23.98 g sodium chloride
5.029 g magnesium chloride
4.01 g sodium sulfate
1.14 g calcium chloride
0.699 g potassium chloride
0.172 g sodium bicarbonate
0.100 g potassium bromide
0.0254 g boric acid
0.0143 g strontium chloride
0.0029 g sodium fluoride
Water to 1 kg total weight.

This could work, there are many recipes available.

Always make sure you get the right purity/consistence in products.

I (up till now) didn't use bromide and fluoride

 

[glennf]

It looks to me (meaning I have calculated from Glenn's spreadsheet) that the solutions used for Sr, B, and I are made up as follows:

Sr solution = dissolve 100 grams strontium chloride hexahydrate (SrCl*6H2O) in enough water to make up 1000 mL of solution
B solution = dissolve 45.11 grams of boric acid (H3BO3 / B(OH)3) in enough water to make up 1000 mL of solution, OR
B solution = dissolve 69.56 grams of borax (Na2B4O7*10H2O) in enough water to make up 1000 mL of solution
I solution = dissolve 5 grams of potassium iodide (KI) in enough water to make up 1000 mL of solution

For the Iron, I'm not sure what salt is used. If I was given the identity of a specific salt that would be used, I could do a similar calculation for Iron.

Plausible..
Use at own risk!
Make sure you get the right (pure) products.

 

[glennf]

Of course Glenn won't divulge the R & D he's gone through to create his spreadsheet and the formulas work if you use his products!

But as you mention it is not difficult to get to the final concentrations Glenn uses with a bit of trial and error. Glenn only uses laboratory grade reagents in his formulas as far as I am aware and most of those chemicals mentioned in Randy's chemicals could be used to make up the various solutions.

FWIW, I make up my iron solution to Randy's protocol and it works very well, even dosed as per Glenn's spreadsheet.

Right Tony....
Share your experience

I started this thread just to show the way ... not to give it all away....