The DSR Method (Dutch Synthetic Reefing)

[mcarroll]

[...]I have some concerns though:

1. Many more tests increase the costs and time spent testing
2. Some of the chemicals additives such as boron, strontium e.t.c. are not readily available here in Australia and would need to be sourced at greater expense, possibly from overseas.
3. Using GFO or iron in my tank has always caused a decline in my SPS corals, that's why I use zeolites, bacteria and a carbon source currently to remove PO4.
4. Would like to dose a mixture of some elements together to avoid setting up multiple channels of dosers (I currently have only three channels)

[...]

Likewise. Around US$200 worth of test kits and probably another US$200 or more in reagents would be a massive increase in money and time spent vs what I'm spending on Reef Crystals, RODI filters and Ca, Mg and alk test kits this year...and I was doing daily water changes for a good chunk of time. Spoilage is a cost I worry about: dunno much about any of these reagents suggested yet, but I know all the test kits have expiration dates requiring periodic replacement regardless of usage.

Still, for a reefkeeping system, it looks reasonable and should work if you have enough spare time (and resources)....I see no reason on the surface why it wouldn't. But as a method of saving something (work? money?) vs water changes I'm not sure I see the value yet, unless the physical act of lifting buckets of water is all you seek to avoid (which you will)...but I'll keep reading. Glenn is just getting warmed up!

-Matt

 

[Antnee]

Tagging along for the ride.

 

[glennf]

Post #93 is what I was waiting for! Love it!

-Matt

Patience is the key matt...

 

[reefwiser]

Matt what I like is that it ties together the additives and testing. Showing you what and how much to use. You see so many post's of hobbyist not knowing what is goingon with a test result and what they should do about. The Salifert kits have a two year expiration if stores and used properly. As for as money and time look at all work put into water changes and the time to do them properly. People spend a lot of time and money or auto water change systems. An then you have the loss of coral from improper water conditions to factor in. That is a a lot of cost in money and coral lives. I have used a complete LaMotte test kit system for years now. lamotte.htm so testing is something that I am very use to doing.

 

[Squamosa]

Matt what I like is that it ties together the additives and testing. Showing you what and how much to use. You see so many post's of hobbyist not knowing what is goingon with a test result and what they should do about. The Salifert kits have a two year expiration if stores and used properly. As for as money and time look at all work put into water changes and the time to do them properly. People spend a lot of time and money or auto water change systems. An then you have the loss of coral from improper water conditions to factor in. That is a a lot of cost in money and coral lives. I have used a complete LaMotte test kit system for years now. lamotte.htm so testing is something that I am very use to doing.

If Glenn uses simple tests such as Salifert then they are good enough for me, I suppose.

However, I would feel more comfortable with using a lab grade colorimeter i.e. Lamotte or Macherey-Nagel, but these would set me back upwards of AU$1000. I say more comfortable because it seems that a high percentage of forum posts deal with test kits and their lack of accuracy, even Glenn commented on the fact that there are batch faults with some tests or reagents.

Glenn, are there clear links to:

• The different brands of test kits used by yourself?
• Chemical powders or store bought solutions used other than NaHCO_3, CaCl, MgCl?
• The concentrations of solutions made especially those of the minor trace elements (excluding NaHCO_3, CaCl, MgCl as these are already in the calculator)
• Mixing ratios of VS carbon source?
• What 'sugar' are you using? (Glucose e.t.c.)
• Do you add any other elements to your system other than those mentioned in the calculating spreadsheet? Salt mixes such as Red Sea claim to have '52 elements in their salt mixes.

I have access to lab grade reagents and can order the chemicals I need.

I would like to begin by doing water changes with my own made up salt water, seeing if there are noticeable results and then progressing to the full DSR method.

I know there are many questions, but research is the key

Cheers,
Tony

 

[mcarroll]

Patience is the key matt...

Information is the key, but I'll agree patience is a virtue!

Matt what I like is that it ties together the additives and testing. Showing you what and how much to use. You see so many post's of hobbyist not knowing what is goingon with a test result and what they should do about. The Salifert kits have a two year expiration if stores and used properly. As for as money and time look at all work put into water changes and the time to do them properly. People spend a lot of time and money or auto water change systems. An then you have the loss of coral from improper water conditions to factor in. That is a a lot of cost in money and coral lives. I have used a complete LaMotte test kit system for years now. lamotte.htm so testing is something that I am very use to doing.

Manual Water Changes
If we're honest and just a little creative, water changes take around 10 minutes or so - only 5 minutes to mix your water, then a few more minutes to remove and add the new water and clean up. That's it. Video evidence of saltwater mixing in posts #301 and #306 of another thread.

Automatic Water Changes
An automatic water change system probably costs around $200 depending on whether you DIY and what system you choose if you buy. (You can spend a lot if you want!) The only ongoing costs there seem to be the peristaltic tubing needing replacement once every 6 months, but China seems to have made that pretty inexpensive these days. (Not cheap from the manufacturer, though.) There's a pretty good thread here: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/do...water-changes-doesnt-get-any-better-then.html and it's addressed a little bit in my Water Change A Day thread starting with post #290.

Coral Lifespan
Both of these methods are pretty easy, as well as tried and true and cover the cost spectrum pretty well.

In terms of lost coral, I'm not sure how DSR is going to help much with that. Ignorance is one cause and DSR is just as susceptible as any other system to it. The other main cause of shortened lifespan is accident. In terms of long term support of life, I'd wager that simpler systems win out over more complex systems almost every time....it's the human nature to err that we're all working against regardless of the system. Simpler just means less chances for something to happen. Less-simple means more chances for something to happen.

Thoughts
I hope that all doesn't sound more than fairly critical. I know the OP opened the thread in a very defensive posture, maybe due to experiences elsewhere, but we're about sharing thoughts and ideas here on R2R, especially the critical ones so people can avoid making the same mistakes others have made.

I don't think DSR is probably a system "for everyone". What I think is that DSR's advantage simply does not lie in the above facts, but elsewhere....and this is what I'd like to get around to hearing people's thoughts on. If not "everyone", who is DSR going to be good for?

Off the top of my head....

• If you're someone who likes the extra control for that extra 0.1% difference, DSR seems to have an advantage.
• If you need to conserve water, DSR seems to have a big advantage.
• If you have trouble moving water, or the tank is in a place that is hard to get water to, DSR seems to have an advantage.

Anyone disagree or have anything to add to this list?

-Matt

 

[Acro]

I'm curious as to how detritus is taken care of in the sumps. Would putting some overly excessive power heads to keep the bottom clear be a viable option? Just thinking outloud, as I'm kind of OCD about it lol

 

[danangelo]

I agree Matt with you said..with any system it can be successful its up to the individuals understanding of that system how it can work or not for them. I see this time and time again mistakes are made and they blame the system that they're using that it doesn't work..I think at one point in the hobby we all have done this..but trying new ways and making mistakes is what advances all of us in this hobby learning from other peoples mistake..with all system stability is the key and finding the correct balance for your own tank from learning how coral or tank gives you indication of what is going on in correlation to your test kit. I like how Glenn showed a new method that he actually spent time perfecting I don't how well it would work for me but I am curious just like with anything I do my research first and figure it out if I can do it or learn something from it..the chemicals are the one that worries me room for mistake is not that big its a learning process just like any thing else..

Danny

 

[mcarroll]

I'm curious as to how detritus is taken care of in the sumps. Would putting some overly excessive power heads to keep the bottom clear be a viable option? Just thinking outloud, as I'm kind of OCD about it lol

I would recommend this regardless of dosing method. There's even a natural precedent (at least one) for this in the ocean.

-Matt

 

[reefwiser]

The DSR method let's you see what you need to add to your tank and not just dosing blindly another 20ml of this and 50 ml of that. You and test and see what is actually being used by your tank and what you need to do to get it back to the proper balance. Knowing the balance of the elements in the tank is very helpful and gives you more control over your tank.

 

[Eienna]

Iron dosing is simply said: putting rust into your tank to bind phosphate.
Iron bind to phosphate and percipitate this percipitation can be skimmed off, or filtered out wit cottonwool on a main pump which can build pressure.

In simpel terms Fe + PO4 dilluted in water becomes FePO4 solid.

Do you have the name of the product you use? Or perhaps exactly what's in it?

 

[mcarroll]

I think you can see all the test kits and reagents in the screen cap he provided here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1924565

I can't find it at the moment, but if you want there's also a download link for the spreadsheet posted too somewhere I think.

-Matt

 

[reefwiser]

Here is where you can get the additives.
DSR
Here is the DSR website
http://www.dsrreefing.nl/
You can down load the DSR calculator from the main web page

 

[beaslbob]

don't know about anyone else but I sure appreciate Paul B's approach, success, and posting.


Thanks Paul

 

[Paul B]

Thanks, but I am not smart enough for this method. My method is to simple, I usually just look at the tank and say something like Duh, looks like their hungry.
Then maybe throw in a cucumber

 

[glennf]

Hi Glenn

I have just started researching your method and being a scientist, having control of all your water parameters is exciting to me. I have also recently become a member of your forum (although I can speak Afrikaans, the Dutch language is still a challenge )
Welcome Tony, i enjoy to have someone on board who understand what i am trying to accomplish, for many people this is beyond what they are willing to understand. Before i got into the science behind the matter it was also mumble jumble to me. So i do understand why some people are against this type of approach to reef keeping.

Your system is an inspiration to all us reefers
thanks,
because i think i have something above average to show i dare to show.
I currently use the ZeoVit method and it is working for me, although very slowly and was thinking of another method to use that is:

1. Not so expensive (with many little bottles) True, i considered it long time ago, but was shocked by the price tag ( I am a cheap ba***rd haha..)
2. Features additives where I know precisely the contents and concentrations of. Also my idea, so i am in control of the scenario
3. I am also looking for good growth and colour with thriving animals. no problem here, my tank grows like a coral farm

I would perhaps like to cut my water changes down to once a month or longer and after having used many different salts would like to formulate my own, knowing precisely what chemical is in each and in the correct ratios. mixing own salt is included in the DSR calculator and was the base of my method

I have a modest 500L SPS dominated tank and have been in the hobby for ~2 years.

I have some concerns though:

1. Many more tests increase the costs and time spent testing
   - the used test sets will cost max. 150-170 euro per year (providing you use up all test in that year, some testkit last longer)
2. Some of the chemicals additives such as boron, strontium e.t.c. are not readily available here in Australia and would need to be sourced at greater expense, possibly from overseas.
   - that is a matter sourcing for the right sources (it took me quite a time to source all pure stuffs for the right price)
3. Using GFO or iron in my tank has always caused a decline in my SPS corals, that's why I use zeolites, bacteria and a carbon source currently to remove PO4.
   - because you lack control, is super active when renewed and you need to guest (measure) when it's worked out. you are running behind the facts
4. Would like to dose a mixture of some elements together to avoid setting up multiple channels of dosers (I currently have only three channels
   - you will need more channels in practice. some stuff can be mixed, but when you mix and your consumption is being altered, the ready made mixture is worthless. Consumptions are constantly being altered by growth, feeding, new introduced live stock and even lighting and change of technical appliances. Some stuff can be dosed manually but it all depend what you are willing to do yourself or automate.

Please keep up the open source of knowledge :rockon:
Cheers, Tony

gtz

GlennF

 

[glennf]

I've been in this hobby for 5 years and still am learning so much. I am slowly starting to understand the meaning of all the water parameters and how to keep them stable and still trying to learn how to get good growth and color in all of my sps corals. It's a slow process for me lol

it's slow process, because you need to learn all from scratch.
there are many teachers and many theories, many of them contradicting each other, or meant to empty your wallet.
you need to reinvent everything yourself and slowly pickup some scarce pointers and techniques from experience reefers.
But no one ever bothered to put all of them together from the from the users Point of vieuw.

 

[beaslbob]

Do you have the name of the product you use? Or perhaps exactly what's in it?

I used to dose ferris gluconate. Dissolved a capsule in an old soda bottle (12-20oz) then added a capful each week. The idea was to dose enough to keep the macros from being iron limited but not enough to endanger the corals.

(available at any drug store).


my .02

 

[beaslbob]

Thanks, but I am not smart enough for this method. My method is to simple, I usually just look at the tank and say something like Duh, looks like their hungry.
Then maybe throw in a cucumber

Pssst: Paul

complicated methods are smart.


Easy methods are brilliant.

 

[mcarroll]

Thanks, but I am not smart enough for this method. My method is to simple, I usually just look at the tank and say something like Duh, looks like their hungry.
Then maybe throw in a cucumber

I almost choked with laughter when I scrolled down to the cuc! LOL

"Is that a cucumber in your tank, or are you just feeding your fish? Whoa!"...in my best Groucho.