The hobby expensive because we are making it so

[Reefing102]

This is just a rant and I realize it’s not going to change a thing and yes I’m aware of the economics of supply and demand. Please note if you see a reference to something you may have posted, it is not a personal attack on you and I will not be mentioning any names. I’m using what’s been posted simply as a reference to justify my standpoin

The hobby expensive because we are making it so…

I say this not because I don’t want to spend money on the hobby, I say this as we are pricing the average hobbyist who are the ones who will continue this hobby, out of the hobby.

Now I realize this hobby is not what it was when I stopped following the “latest and greatest” in equipment, lighting, and everything else. I can easily just say, well I remember when a small colony of hammer or torch or frogspawn was $50 for 8-10 heads. I realize this is not realistic to expect the the same 10 years later.

With that said here are my issues:

Corals - What the heck is going on with the pricing? I’m not saying the cartoon names, as I understand the reasoning behind it. I’m saying since when is a half inch frag worth $500-$800? I say this after reviewing a “flash sale” and nothing I clicked on was below $300. Yes I’m well aware of plenty of other vendors that do not price this high but still $70-$100 per frag is well outrageous.
Now that’s not to say it may or may not be some rare species or slow grower that deserves the price but I mean seriously.
Well okay, those are vendors, they’re out to make money, fine.
I now turn to us “hobbyists”. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read, “well my tank is an investment” or “I only frag to recoup the cost of running the tank and last year I sold $16k in coral”. I’m sorry but if your tank is costing you $16k a year, you really have something wrong with your tank.
I also see a lot of the “Well it cost me “x” so I’m not selling it for less” like these deformed mushrooms we call “bounce mushrooms”. $500/less than 1/2 inch frag. Seriously? That’s just ripping off the hobbyist.
I can guarantee that if I was to ever get one of these mushrooms (it’d have to come cheap), I’m not going to frag it out the moment it gets 1 inch big. I’ll let it multiply on its own and sell them for cheap. No labor involved other than removing from the rock. There’s no reason a mushroom, a freaking mushroom, one of the most prolific growers in home aquaria, should cost $500. At most maybe $100 for a full single mushroom that has some super color variant.

Based on current market value, I supposedly have close to $2k in coral in my tank with my “Firemouth” Green Rhondactis Mushrooms and Neon Green Toadstool and Indo Hammer. I have no plans on fragging any of it because my tank is not an investment. My tank is for my enjoyment.

Okay fine, tell me to find local hobbyists who are out there to help you out. “Many local hobbyists will just give away frags”. Please tell me where these hobbyists are cause they aren’t local around here or in the selling forum here.

Now I understand that there is plenty of reason for increased cost due to import/export bans, Covid, inflation. However, I would say, a large percentage is “captive grown” now, with certain exceptions obviously, so captive grown should reduce the cost, I would think.

Anyway, if we continue to price gouge, this hobby will become what all the “true collectors” or “investment hobbyists” want. One that only the 1% can afford.

Go ahead flame away. I can feel it coming. Bring on the heat! It’s already 80 degrees and humid as all get out outside anyway

 

[ninjamyst]

Hobby is as expensive as you make it. I sell designer zoa frags with 3-10 polyps for $10 a frag. The classics like scramble egg, king midas, nirvana, la laker, etc. I give away green birdsnest all the time. Try Facebook groups.

Have vendors gone crazy with pricing? Absolutely. But still plenty of deals out there from local hobbyist.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

I'm not sure what you're rant is, just buy within your means. I am happy with $40 frags, not tempted at all by the $500 frags. You mention the "hobby" in your title, but you're only talking about the fancy designer corals, which is a niche part of the hobby IMO. I have actually seen the price of inverts, and some fish, come down in the past few months. I think aquarium equipment is way overly expensive, this is where we are taken advantage of, since we all need equipment, but no one needs fancy named corals.

 

[Reefing102]

I’ve found my local Facebook groups seem to be just as bad as vendors. We had a local hobbyist in the past month or so trying to sell hellfire torches for $500/head. I simply laughed and moved on. The issue I’ve found here is my truely local LFS does not get in coral (will special order) due to not knowing how to properly care for it, but it seems there aren’t any truely local hobbyist around. Most are 1hr plus away. Our local reef club hasn’t had an operational website in over a year or so. So yea. Idk. Like I said just ranting.

 

[Ricksreeefs]

Yeah it’s pretty expensive. I lucked out with having so many local ppl that are super generous!

I'm not sure what you're rant is, just buy within your means. I am happy with $40 frags, not tempted at all by the $500 frags. You mention the "hobby" in your title, but you're only talking about the fancy designer corals, which is a niche part of the hobby IMO. I have actually seen the price of inverts, and some fish, come down in the past few months. I think aquarium equipment is way overly expensive, this is where we are taken advantage of, since we all need equipment, but no one needs fancy named corals.

yeah but even just for a small hammer that has one head its $80

 

[Reefing102]

I'm not sure what you're rant is, just buy within your means. I am happy with $40 frags, not tempted at all by the $500 frags. You mention the "hobby" in your title, but you're only talking about the fancy designer corals, which is a niche part of the hobby IMO. I have actually seen the price of inverts, and some fish, come down in the past few months. I think aquarium equipment is way overly expensive, this is where we are taken advantage of, since we all need equipment, but no one needs fancy named corals.

I can agree some fish have come down immensely (gem tangs for $399 shipped? That was unheard of back then). Others have skyrocketed (ocellaris clowns for $40, really?). Equipment is insane yes and I see most of the fancier stuff as unneeded. While my focus is on coral, most people are trying to set up a reef and aren’t doing fish only

 

[Reefing102]

Yeah it’s pretty expensive. I lucked out with having so many local ppl that are super generous!

yeah but even just for a small hammer that has one head its $80

This a basic hammer, torch or frog going for $60-$80 plus a head is ridiculous. Should be closer to $30/head. $30/$40/frag is reasonable to me.

 

[NoahLikesFish]

Hobby is as expensive as you make it. I sell designer zoa frags with 3-10 polyps for $10 a frag. The classics like scramble egg, king midas, nirvana, la laker, etc. I give away green birdsnest all the time. Try Facebook groups.

Have vendors gone crazy with pricing? Absolutely. But still plenty of deals out there from local hobbyist.

3 polyps though is almost nothing. i have a colony of parazoanthus 50+ polyps on a big peice of live rock that i got for 7 dollars wheras people are selling the same exact coral with like 2 polyps on the frag plug for 30$

 

[MONTANTK]

It’s getting expensive for sure. Buying from hobbyists used to give you the most bang for your buck and while it still does, it’s not nearly as much as it did 3-5 years ago. I remember about 6 years ago my LFS had a massive euphyllia sale with green, yellow and orange hammers and frogspawns that were only $30/head. Aussie torches could be had for about $120/head. Obviously things change but it sucks seeing everything become so much more expensive

 

[Ricksreeefs]

This a basic hammer, torch or frog going for $60-$80 plus a head is ridiculous. Should be closer to $30/head. $30/$40/frag is reasonable to me.

Yeah like I said I’m just so lucky with my local people. My lfs sells gold torch’s that are super dull and haven’t colored up what so ever for 300 that’s crazy. No way I’m buying that.

 

[Joe462]

Rants like this frustrate me. There is plenty of cheap coral out there but you cant expect people to sell the current "fad" corals or rare and unusual corals for 20$ a frag. Vendors are often going to focus on those coral because that is where they stand to make the highest profit margin and they are trying to make a living in an unpredictable and sometimes challenging hobby.

I like selling coral as a hobbiest for several reasons, helps offset some of the cost of the hobby, i get to meet and talk to other hobbiests, and i can sell some nice coral for less than vendors do (still not cheap in many cases). Its fun. I sell lots of cheap coral or try to at least, but the odd thing is that its hard to sell the cheap stuff. What people want is the really nice stuff for dirt cheap, and that is an unrealistic expectation. The last swap i went to i sold a lot of the high end expensive stuff i brought but had a hard time selling the 20$ hammer frags, 15$ birds nest frags, 10$ monti caps, and 10$ green acros for example and had to bring most of them home. Just my observation

 

[Dolphins18]

Coral wont come from the wild forever and I think people know this.
Inflation is at its highest point of the 21st century.
Tons of small business vendors have gone up in the last 2 years in this hobby, I am certain their up front costs are high, they see an opportunity to capitalize early on with the current bubble economy.
People buying 500 dollar frags can likely afford to pay that, or they'd be buying other frags.

 

[fachatga]

There really are still tons of cheap corals. I get that some unusual ones are super expensive but even some amazing rainbow acros are all over the place for $30-$50. Really cool mushrooms for $20-$30. So many days to stock an amazing tank for a reasonable amount. My lfs sells torches frogspawn and hammers for under $50 per head. I really don’t see any pricing people out of the hobby. Just like any other hobby it’s as expensive as you want to make it. I think this is kinda like saying because Ferrari’s are crazy expensive then the car industry is getting out of control.

 

[Uncle99]

That’s capitalism!
Long live the free market.
Nothing wrong at all.
If you were on the selling side, you’d be happy.

 

[Hydrored]

Buy within your means, how many LFS’s actually have grow out tanks? Most of them are just buying from a wholesaler and applying a markup. So I guess it’s the wholesalers fault. Do not want to pay for the latest tenuis? Then don’t buy it.

I honestly steer more and more people away from this hobby (flame on)

People come in with expectations that this hobby is affordable and tanks run themselves. I believe a reef tank is far more responsibility to take care of than our three dogs, they run out the dog door to use the bathroom and get fed twice a day. No salinity monitoring, water testing, equipment failures, proper lighting and flow. 2 vet visits a year

There is a huge amount of cost and responsibility in maintaining a reef tank. I think the focus needs to be directed there instead of what does a piece of coral cost

 

[MarshallB]

It is a sign of the growing popularity of the hobby.

Its a two way street. Sure things CAN BE expensive depending on where you look. IF you can't find that $500 frag anywhere else... well how badly do you want it? How badly does someone else want it?

On the flip side you can make money just maintaining your tank. I trimmed up some zoas a month ago. I created 5 frags and threw the rest away. My LFS gave me $100 for those 5 which I traded for a $100 octo frogspawn. Now if I want new corals, ill just trim some and trade them.

 

[Reefing102]

I get there are plenty of affordable corals but to me thats not what the new hobbiest is seeing. They’re going on IG, Facebook, or these vendor sites and seeing $300/$400 corals and are thinking I’m never going to afford that.

I understand it’s capitalism and I have no issue with that. I choose to spend elsewhere. I completely understand too that people are going for the more expensive “in” corals.

To me, if I saw a post in the for sale forum that had $5-$30/frag corals and offered shipping (that’s the kicker for most it seems). If there was something I wanted, I would most likely try to jump on it and make it worth my while but unfortunately you just don’t see them or they’re hidden amongst the higher priced corals and overlooked when browsing. Again just ranting. I can afford the $500 coral, I simply choose not to buy it.

I have actually seen a couple LFS that don’t have dedicated grow out tanks but will frag from their display tanks every so often.

As far as mark up, I totally understand that. I know my LFS’s mark up is at least 230% wholesale price. For example, if it’s $10 wholesale they sell it for at least $23. I know this cause I used to work there

 

[Goaway]

Anyway, if we continue to price gouge, this hobby will become what all the “true collectors” or “investment hobbyists” want. One that only the 1% can afford.

It became that way in 2006. Things were getting crazy. It's the rest of us who are keeping relevant and trying not to get weeded out.
I look for steals and deals on the market place here. Shipping can be insane. But if the corals are cheap, why not?
I was looking for octospawns. A lot of vendors have them at 150 per head. >.> Yes, that's insane.
When I want something, and for a price... I don't stop until it's done.
Yes, this hobby is frustrating. When I see nice frags for sale to local pic up only. ;Sour
My area is very dull and not a lot of reefers here. They can't afford it.

 

[Goaway]

I can afford the $500 coral, I simply choose not to buy it.

I agree with this. And I see nothing wrong with an actual rant. Others may not like it. This subject pops up a lot.
I am done with vendors for now. For too many reasons to list. 5 of them being torches.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

This is just a rant and I realize it’s not going to change a thing and yes I’m aware of the economics of supply and demand. Please note if you see a reference to something you may have posted, it is not a personal attack on you and I will not be mentioning any names. I’m using what’s been posted simply as a reference to justify my standpoin

The hobby expensive because we are making it so…

I say this not because I don’t want to spend money on the hobby, I say this as we are pricing the average hobbyist who are the ones who will continue this hobby, out of the hobby.

Now I realize this hobby is not what it was when I stopped following the “latest and greatest” in equipment, lighting, and everything else. I can easily just say, well I remember when a small colony of hammer or torch or frogspawn was $50 for 8-10 heads. I realize this is not realistic to expect the the same 10 years later.

With that said here are my issues:

Corals - What the heck is going on with the pricing? I’m not saying the cartoon names, as I understand the reasoning behind it. I’m saying since when is a half inch frag worth $500-$800? I say this after reviewing a “flash sale” and nothing I clicked on was below $300. Yes I’m well aware of plenty of other vendors that do not price this high but still $70-$100 per frag is well outrageous.
Now that’s not to say it may or may not be some rare species or slow grower that deserves the price but I mean seriously.
Well okay, those are vendors, they’re out to make money, fine.
I now turn to us “hobbyists”. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read, “well my tank is an investment” or “I only frag to recoup the cost of running the tank and last year I sold $16k in coral”. I’m sorry but if your tank is costing you $16k a year, you really have something wrong with your tank.
I also see a lot of the “Well it cost me “x” so I’m not selling it for less” like these deformed mushrooms we call “bounce mushrooms”. $500/less than 1/2 inch frag. Seriously? That’s just ripping off the hobbyist.
I can guarantee that if I was to ever get one of these mushrooms (it’d have to come cheap), I’m not going to frag it out the moment it gets 1 inch big. I’ll let it multiply on its own and sell them for cheap. No labor involved other than removing from the rock. There’s no reason a mushroom, a freaking mushroom, one of the most prolific growers in home aquaria, should cost $500. At most maybe $100 for a full single mushroom that has some super color variant.

Based on current market value, I supposedly have close to $2k in coral in my tank with my “Firemouth” Green Rhondactis Mushrooms and Neon Green Toadstool and Indo Hammer. I have no plans on fragging any of it because my tank is not an investment. My tank is for my enjoyment.

Okay fine, tell me to find local hobbyists who are out there to help you out. “Many local hobbyists will just give away frags”. Please tell me where these hobbyists are cause they aren’t local around here or in the selling forum here.

Now I understand that there is plenty of reason for increased cost due to import/export bans, Covid, inflation. However, I would say, a large percentage is “captive grown” now, with certain exceptions obviously, so captive grown should reduce the cost, I would think.

Anyway, if we continue to price gouge, this hobby will become what all the “true collectors” or “investment hobbyists” want. One that only the 1% can afford.

Go ahead flame away. I can feel it coming. Bring on the heat! It’s already 80 degrees and humid as all get out outside anyway

I love your energy, let’s talk about it because if we don’t nothing can be done about it. I’m one of those local reefers that if a coral is going to be sold from my tank I sell them cheap, to a local. I also buy them cheap from places that don’t slap a catchy name on it. I collect euphyllia tho and it’s easier for me to find nice pieces that don’t come with a catchy name except for some really high end ones that have a universal well known name for its color variant. I sold a ten headed frammer for 60 bucks because I didn’t have the room in my tank and it grows like a weed. I got a bunch of zoas I could let go of and I’m not expecting a price per polyp. I feel like coral isn’t the main price problem but it can be if your not careful. My problem is the lighting and flow. Most of this stuff is outsourced to China to maximize profits but I don’t see the price reflecting the manufacturing origin. If I did I would never see people buying jabeo products. I don’t want to pay a company just so the company can pay another country’s work force, all the while the ceo and his buddy’s piggy back off that country’s labor. It’s wrong to allow a manufacturer that makes similar products for others, to slap a different label on your product so you can turn around and market it at a premium, it makes me feel like a sucker to pay more for a product just because the label or shell has been redesigned.
I feel these companies are scared to pay a premium to keep their design and create manufacturing jobs here in the US. But I would be more scared that the foreign manufacturer is going to take my design and hand them over to the competition because they have no ties or respect for you. Some of these foreign country manufacturers are going/have gone through lawsuits for leaking info that was not their’s to give